What’s the problem with Trans?

[Karenista]

Posting for traffic:
Can someone please take the time to explain to me what the issue is with trans women? Or trans rights in general?

I consider myself a feminist, but since reading all the posts about publicly ‘coming out as GC’, I now feel... almost... not feminist enough because I believe in trans rights.

Where’s the middle ground? Or am I now going to feel alienated from ‘GC feminists?’

@CuriousaboutSamphire still no idea what you are on about- your post is completely incoherent.

And Caster Semenya is not male. According to scientific and medical consensus she is a woman. Educate yourself.

I thought medically she had been assigned female at birth and tossed female but biologically she had XY chromosomes which meant she had some male characteristics and hormones?

[quote Bizawit]@isabellerossignol caster semenya is NOT male. How utterly ignorant. Clearly you know nothing about the science and medicine of sex.[/quote]
Caster's diagnoses is not in the public domain. It is assumed she has a DSD and a a Y chromosome making her genetically male with a female phenotype. However that is pure conjecture and none of us really should be debating someone else's medical history.

@Katypyee I think you’re confusing feminism with egalitarianism.

So the documents that were released by the IAAF were drawn from assumptions and not medical evidence? That's doesn't seem fair

Do you believe in equal rights for EVERYBODY?

Do you believe women have right to sex-segregated spaces like changing rooms, hospital wards, shelters? To request that intimate exams are performed by females?

@JokerAndTheThief

So the documents that were released by the IAAF were drawn from assumptions and not medical evidence? That's doesn't seem fair

I don't know what documents you're referring to but it's reasonable to suggest the IAAF has detailed medical knowledge of competitors that isn't released to the general public.

The issue is, that the trans activists don't have an argument.

This is their sole argument: Transwomen are women.

Once that is accepted, then automatically, TW have access and are entitled to everything that biological women are entitled to.

You can ask them why, you can ask what rights are being denied, you can talk about not wanting a penis in your female space, it doesn't matter.

You either accept TWAW (therefore all rights for women are their rights) or you don't accept TWAW (you're a transphobe and a bigot).

There is no argument, and the hard left rely on emotion. Which is why I've heard so many people, normally on the left, saying they just can't get on board with this, despite knowing they 'should'.

I mean, we are on board, in the sense I will use preferred pronouns, I will respect all human beings, I don't want anyone to be bullied over this, or to end their life because they are so unhappy. This is why being on the left and being against someone else's 'rights' doesn't sit quite well.

But the rights being denied, are not of trans, they are of women.

titchy there's far too much personal information about Caster Semenya in the public domain. It's very uncomfortable.

But the IAAF did reject her appeal to be able to compete in women's events with no testosterone suppressant.

I think that was the correct decision in terms of international sport. But a horrible, degrading decision for Semenya.

@titchy

Documents form the court case last year

When I said earlier in the thread that Caster Semenya is male I based that solely on what I had read of the IAAF reports. If they didn't actually say that then I apologise.

I do feel sympathy for Caster Semenya in that it must be unpleasant having medical information in the public domain. But I'm uncomfortable that someone who appeared to have an unfair advantage feels it is a breach of their rights not to be able to continue that advantage.

It was really uncomfortable. It just didn't sit right with me and I do feel so sorry for her

And none of that is relevant to trans issues in sport since Caster Semenya isn't trans.

@catgirl1976

Thank you *@titchy*.

I didn’t think I did either. I think every adult should be free to live as they wish (provided they are not hurting anyone) free from ridicule or discrimination. However, I do not believe women should have to budge up and handover their hard won rights, spaces and protections. Nor do I think children should be put on medical pathways with due appropriate due diligence.

And I still don’t know what rights transgender people currently do not have in the UK

just this really - targeting cancer charities that stat the FACT that women have a cervix and men don't - it's bloody scary the way these TRA's go after women's charities and women's organisations - why it's almost as if these - NOT Trans 'friends of trans' activists had their own agenda

see most TRA's aren't even trans - they are just angry men who dislike women

@JokerAndTheThief

It was really uncomfortable. It just didn't sit right with me and I do feel so sorry for her

Oh I do on a personal level. But equally I do think the playing field (excuse pun) has to be level for the other competitors. And asking her to take suppressants seems a reasonable way for that to happen which enables her to continue to compete and earn a living.

Not that people with a DSD have anything whatsoever to do with trans people of course.

Have I educated myself sufficiently? Or am I not considered knowledgeable until I have changed my mind?

I'd go with the former, no-one's telling you to change your views.
I'm not anyway. You're entitled to your opinion.
I was just saying don't just listen to GC views as it's extremely one sided here.

still no idea what you are on about- your post is completely incoherent. Hardly surprising upui can't understand it!

Caster Sementa's medical records are, in part, public. As are most other athletes. Whilst the results of various tests have not been made public we KNOW a lot because of the CAS and IAAF rulings. They were made based on all the information, including that which is still being kept private. Think about those rulings and what they mean for sport! How do you want them to be concluded?

That nobody will stand up and officially say Semenya is male or female is because there is still a lot of legal action going on. That and the legitimate science is working on understanding the mechanisms, the real differences of various DSD conditions. They may, or may not, be able to draw up guidelines that re-level the playing field.

As I said, I used to lecture in this stuff!

Let's start with what a transperson is. According to stonewall, someone whose gender identity does not match their sex. That's pretty vague and a great many people don't have a gender identity , which actually makes them trans-none-binary according to stonewall. Most of them can see they meet the description, but would not necessarily describe themselves that way, perhaps partly because they feel unwelcome in the transcommunity

But the more normal understanding is someone with a hatred of their sexed body and a belief that they are really the opposite sex to what their body suggests. And that's very normal also. Especially for teenagers who have rapid physical and hormonal changes going on. I thought of myself as David for many years and would have leapt at the thought of double mastectomy. So yet another transperson, although I would not use that term, because I don't like labels and because the transcommunity would not welcome me either

So what you actually have is a group of people who identity as trans, and a group of people who by definition are trans but don't identify as trans.

One group see their needs being met by forcing people to consider them the opposite sex, often with significant medical,intervention, the other group see their needs as being met by forcing people to abandon stereotypes and sexual abuse .

No one has really looked at which approach gives better long term outcomes for people

I think there is a third group, people with a dysmorphia that does start in early child,hood, that is very deep seated , and I feel that their genuine issues are being trampled over

I guess what I am saying is that some of the "rights" that the trans community want are not demanded by all transpeople but only a subset, and I find it most revealing that most (all?) of that subset named so far on this thread all share the same sex, and that many people who are being accused of being TERF are actually really transpeople who are being excluded by the trans community

[quote Katypyee]@Karenista I am not going to even bother reading the comments you have received (thank you to all of you who have posted helpful comments though) as so many times when this is discussed I end up disappointed by the misinformation and transphobia that can be displayed.

You CAN be a feminist and include trans women. Trans women ARE women.

Do you believe in equal rights for EVERYBODY? Do you believe that people should be respected and treated how you would like to be treated yourself with equality and kindness?

There is no middle ground. You are a feminist as am I.[/quote]
Trans women are trans women. That is fine. They should have access to suitable education, prisons, toilets and whatever else. But that should not, must not, come at the expense of single sex environments for those that need them or want them.

Wear what you, call yourself whatever you like, enjoy whatever hobbies you like, sleep with whoever you like (as long as they consent).

But if I was in prison, I would not share a cell with a male, even if they wore a skirt and called themselves Shirley.

@titchy ha! Don’t lecture me. I raised her case as an example of a woman who has been discriminated against in sport. Caster Semenya identifies as a woman and has been declared a woman by the scientific bodies who have examined her case - this is public knowledge.

When I said earlier in the thread that Caster Semenya is male I based that solely on what I had read of the IAAF reports. If they didn't actually say that then I apologise. They sort of did and didn't at the same time.

The rulings would have no impact on women competing. They are spcifically for the most unusual of women, those with very, very elevated levels of testosterone. Outside of sport, in less scientific circles, you would say a transwoman or someone with a form of DSD, and you would be right.

Inside fof sprt CAS are walking a fine line,a s are the IAAF. Money and influence play a big part in this! And the IAAF have never changed rulings on eligibility wothout a lot of research, over a decade and counting in this case! They are trying to write the regulations so that sex is almost irrelevant. They are, it seems, aiming to future proof sport against the ever increasing number of seemingly DSD athletes, also coralling transwomen as they go.

In the long run it makes sense. Eventually blood etsts will ascertain the levels of testosterone, the reactivity of certain hormones to training and exercise etc et and that will govern where you compete!

May take a few more decades yet! And in the mean time transwomen will get to compete against women by lowering their testosterone to levels far above those that would get a natal woman banned!

I wish I had proof read that [shame]

[quote Bizawit]@titchy ha! Don’t lecture me. I raised her case as an example of a woman who has been discriminated against in sport. Caster Semenya identifies as a woman and has been declared a woman by the scientific bodies who have examined her case - this is public knowledge.[/quote]
She hasn't been defined as male or female for the record. And I agree hers is a sad case.

She isn't trans though.

@CuriousaboutSamphire what point are you trying to make I don’t understand? The biology of sex is incredibly complicated, and scientists themselves are in flux/ debate. (However, the general scientific/ medical consensus at the moment is that there are various circumstances in which a person can have an XY kareotype and be female- e.g Swyer syndrome, CAIS etc). This is precisely why when people evoke a fundamentalist, binary notion of biological sex- this is the TRUTH, no matter what you say about your lives experience - I know the TRUTH and it’s because of binary SEX which is a FACT! - this is as erroneous as it is obtuse.

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