What’s the problem with Trans?

[Karenista]

Posting for traffic:
Can someone please take the time to explain to me what the issue is with trans women? Or trans rights in general?

I consider myself a feminist, but since reading all the posts about publicly ‘coming out as GC’, I now feel... almost... not feminist enough because I believe in trans rights.

Where’s the middle ground? Or am I now going to feel alienated from ‘GC feminists?’

This is how Caster Semenya has been treated in sport, and this is how trans people are treated all the time.

See notbad’s post above. Caster has argued not to have their male levels of testosterone suppressed so as to better win against women. I had huge amounts of sympathy initially but now I consider Caster to be a cheat.

Caster Semenya being an example of someone suffering because of this.

I don't understand why not being allowed to compete in a categories where you have an unfair advantage is 'suffering'. Surely the people who are suffering are the other athletes, not the one who has the advantage?

Similarly, when I look at the workplace, I don't understand why transwomen are viewed as disadvantaged compared with natal women. In my workplace, the transwomen can speak on behalf of transwomen, and they can speak on behalf of women. A transwoman can be celebrated as the first woman to achieve something but a woman doesn't get to be celebrated as the first transwoman to achieve something. So when do women get to have their achievements recognised?

I really think that using people with DSDs as a way of arguing that males should be allowed to compete in women's sports is pretty low tbh.

To be blunt, when it comes to sports, who cares how a male 'identifies'? What has anyone's feelings got to do with how much weight that male can lift, how fast they can ride a bike, or how hard that male can punch a female in the face (and 'enjoy it' if you are Fallon Fox?)

@midgebabe I’m not sure I understand what you mean. So it is a fact that sex affects the physical body, but it is regressive to think that sex affects the brain? Is the brain not part of the physical body?

All three medalists of the Rio Olympics women’s 800m final are biological males. Which is where much of the science started, as a repsonse to that specific race.

It is incredible, looking back, that it took so long for sport and science to get their joint heads around this. It wasn't until 2019, that Niyonsaba and Wambui were confirmed as having been born with the 46, XY karyotype.

Anyway, stomping out now as I recognise in bizawit and other postings the sort of people that fed my dysmorphia

I know I am female. I know I don't have to conform to any gender stereotype. I know I would like my body more if it hadn't been the target for abuse. There is nothing wrong or odd with me.

@midgebabe I’m not confused. I know the difference between sex and gender. Sorry I should have kept it simple for you and left out the word gender.

Has anyone mentioned clownfish/barramundi yet?!

Bizawit

So it is a fact that sex affects the physical body, but it is regressive to think that sex affects the brain? Is the brain not part of the physical body? Oooh!

And we're off on another Magic Roundabout!

No, brains are not sexed, not as you may be trying to imply! Yes, there are physical differences, just as there are in the rest of the body. But many of the other differences include socialisation, and are still up for scientific grabs, but the sensible money is on the brain not being inherently sexed!

Watch the science for another few decades and we may know more!

@Cavemum

Ooof! Patronised again!

midgebabe I'm with you! Off to bed and start afresh tomorrow!

The point is that human bodies are varied and ambiguous- so is the human brain, which is a part of the body.

Yes it is. But a brain in a male body is by definition a male brain. That brain originated from the same single cell that the rest of that male body originated from, it's a male brain.

The idea that it's possible for a 'lady brain' to somehow end up in a male body at some stage has absolutely no basis in science. There is no medical consensus which says that you would be able to look at different brains, on say a brain scan, and be able to tell with absolute certainty which were male brains and which were female. In order to determine that for certain, you would have to take cell samples and look at chromosomes.

If a male doesn't fit into the box of what men should be and identifies more closely with stereotypes about females, then that isn't because something is wrong with their brain, its because those boxes of what men and women should be, and what they should identify with, are bullshit.

@CuriousaboutSamphire when you say ‘brains are not sexed’ what do you mean?

[quote Bizawit]@midgebabe I’m not sure I understand what you mean. So it is a fact that sex affects the physical body, but it is regressive to think that sex affects the brain? Is the brain not part of the physical body?[/quote]
there's no evidence for male
Or female brains being different though. As far as I know there also no evidence for male and female little toes being different either - and I think toes are body parts?9

The idea that it's possible for a 'lady brain' to somehow end up in a male body at some stage has absolutely no basis in science.

I would never argue such simplistic nonsense. Such a notion is routed in a very simplistic understanding of sex which I absolutely reject.

when you say ‘brains are not sexed’ what do you mean? What do you think I mean?

I think I explained it clearly enough!

As titchy said, substitute toes for brain, that should make it easier for you to understand

I would never argue such simplistic nonsense. Such a notion is routed in a very simplistic understanding of sex which I absolutely reject. Oh, that's almost too good to pass up... but I AM going to switch off now!

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Look, here I go..

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Bye

I’ll send you all some journal articles tomorrow on the biology of sex if you are genuinely interested in having a meaningful debate.

As far as I understand, there are tendencies in male and female brains, I think spatial awareness is an example. But that doesn't mean that a woman who has better spatial awareness skills than the average woman, is actually a man!

And yes, there are differences in male and female brains in terms of controlling hormone release, but again transgender males will still go through a male puberty, because their male hypothalamus in their male brain will trigger that.

[quote Bizawit]@isabellerossignol caster semenya is NOT male. How utterly ignorant. Clearly you know nothing about the science and medicine of sex.[/quote]
Umm. This really is incorrect. The IOC ruling that discusses Semenya’s specific DSD let the cat out of the bag. Senenya’s specific DSD only affects males.
Until that point, I too was under the impression that the media was stoking hatred on an athlete for not performing femininity.
Turns out we were being gaslit and the media was right all along. Galling, because decades ago I routinely argued with people calling her a man.
I was the one talking bollocks. Just like you. Man, I was pissed.

I would never argue such simplistic nonsense. Such a notion is routed in a very simplistic understanding of sex which I absolutely reject

Why are brain scans or biopsies not part of the dx process

I know someone who was born with 11 toes and someone who was born with a finger missing on one hand. That doesn't mean that the number of fingers and toes that a human is classified as having is 'variable'.

Yes, I've never heard anyone say that digits are a spectrum.

@ThatsHowWeRowl but if someone has 4 fingers And 11 toes, do you insist that really, deep down they are a person with 5 fingers And 5 toes ??

Seahorses are not horses.