What’s the problem with Trans?

[Karenista]

Posting for traffic:
Can someone please take the time to explain to me what the issue is with trans women? Or trans rights in general?

I consider myself a feminist, but since reading all the posts about publicly ‘coming out as GC’, I now feel... almost... not feminist enough because I believe in trans rights.

Where’s the middle ground? Or am I now going to feel alienated from ‘GC feminists?’

Bizawit the issue for competitive sport isn't whether CS is a man or woman (that's her private business, or it should be) but whether she should be permitted to compete in women's sports categories without hormonal suppressants.

To which, at the moment, the IAAF has decided no, and CS lost her appeal.

I'm not sure that the attempts to blur male/female categories for sporting events and teams does make sense CuriousaboutSamphire. Women weren't permitted to participate in so many sporting events for so long - just in terms of the 800m for example, there was no women's category for most of the 20th century.

Science does seem pretty clear that it's not just testosterone that gives male bodies a strength and speed advantage - muscle density, lung capacity, bone length all play a part.

OP, Being Gender critical doesn't mean that there's a problem with trans people. Throughout my life (mid 50s) there have been gender dysphoric people who needed to change the way they looked, behaved and presented to be comfortable in their own skin. These people , quite rightly, in my opinion, deserve us all to be kind and inclusive.
Meanwhile, women are still disadvantaged compared to men: not just financially, in the workplace, physically, victims of violence etc. , but in mundane ways that the second wave feminists (who I mostly ignored as a university educated middle class privileged young woman: I now realise I was mistaken). continued to fight for. Women's safe places to avoid male violence, women's spaces: I only found out very recently that it only became a requirement for workplaces to provide a women's' loo in 1992, for example. 199fucking2. For fucks sake.

Then, carried forth by a generation of older men who are used to getting their own way because 'male Conditioning' and a younger generation (millennial/ gen Z) for whom dissent is 'actual literal violence', the self identifying group came forth: the Stonewall definition of trans now includes any cross dresser, or anyone who says they are re a woman on any given day; so self identity isn't about what one needs to feel well, it's about whatever you want on any given day.

Now, if someone asked me to stand up for the rights of anyone to wear whatever they want, whether the clothes are stereotypically male or female, or use whatever pronouns they want, or have me speak to them using their preferred pronouns then I'm all
In. But now that trans people includes anyone who wants to wear a gender non conforming outfit or anyone who says on a given day that they feel like a different gender, I don't believe that the needs of women in rape centres, the positive discriminatory (albeit too little too late) women's a short lists and industry awards, the private places for women, should have to be shared. The more I read the more gender critical I feel. I say this as someone with an adult trans child who understands my view. The sheer self-entitlement of a group of people who aren't even distressed by their sex but are unsatisfied unless they dismantle the protections of another disadvantaged group for 'feels'. If the need to prove transgender ness is removed then all the safeguards are removed. It's not ok.

Oh dear!

For anyone else who wants to read about Swyer, CAIS etc, maybe start with the science rather than the feels. For example:

ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/swyer-syndrome

@christinarossetti19 precisely.

[quote Bizawit]@CuriousaboutSamphire what point are you trying to make I don’t understand? The biology of sex is incredibly complicated, and scientists themselves are in flux/ debate. (However, the general scientific/ medical consensus at the moment is that there are various circumstances in which a person can have an XY kareotype and be female- e.g Swyer syndrome, CAIS etc). This is precisely why when people evoke a fundamentalist, binary notion of biological sex- this is the TRUTH, no matter what you say about your lives experience - I know the TRUTH and it’s because of binary SEX which is a FACT! - this is as erroneous as it is obtuse.[/quote]
Samphire is a scientist in this area, and I suspect knows far more than you....

But what has this to do with trans anyway?

@CuriousaboutSamphire I beg your pardon? I know the science- I do this for a living. People with Swyer syndrome are designated female.

@titchy err yeh so am I. And I’ve already explained twice what it has to do with this debate.

Scientists in general agree that sex is binary determined by certain xx/xy gene and that occasionally something goes wrong

Some genes cause people to be blind or have extra toes and some cause people to have broken reproductive systems.

Some genetic combinations (xxy?) May present in different ways , more masculine or feminine, depending on the coding of other genes, but in essence , its still a genetic disorder, and they still won't have overies and a womb

Caveat to the above, I think the most common abnormality is an xxx which does function as female

Transpeople have as far as anyone has detected , no distinguishing genetic feature

@Michelleoftheresistance

I'm talking about the level of hatred, by sheeple who decide they're TERF's with absolutely no experience of the lives of trans-people

This implies that if everyone with concerns about female sex based needs and rights being harmed just listened more to trans people, they would gladly stop caring about females and their needs and see harm to females as justifiable collateral damage.

Yes, TW currently use female spaces. The issues for females with this is well documented. If you are lucky and privileged enough in your life that you can use mixed sex spaces without difficulty then I'm very happy for you. But if you care about social justice, inclusion, diversity, intersectionality and kindness.... you are going to have to care too about the females who quietly turn and leave when they find a male bodied person present in the toilet, or the female people whose faith, race, culture, disability, trauma, history of rape or DV, means they cannot access a mixed sex space. You are going to have to care too about the females who will not accept health care if they are not allowed a female only hcp. You are going to have to care too about the female people who won't stay on a ward, vulnerable and ill in a bed a few spaces away from someone they perceive as male. You are going to have to care about the female who stays in a violent, dangerous home or lives rough (as one MNetter does) because refuges insist she must put aside her trauma in order to validate a male who identifies as a woman and wants to use a female refuge instead of the male ones. You are going to have to care that it is a problem to exclude and turn away vulnerable females from any service or provision in order to provide males with more choice and better wellbeing.

Otherwise you are a raging hypocrite who doesn't hold those values at all, but merely sees male people as intrinsically more valuable than female ones.

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I'm not sure that the attempts to blur male/female categories for sporting events and teams does make sense Me either. But I would guess that one way of looking at it is to have other measures rather than just observed or self declared sex!

Science does seem pretty clear that it's not just testosterone that gives male bodies a strength and speed advantage - muscle density, lung capacity, bone length all play a part. Yup! I just didn't type them all in, I was focussing on the unseen, for those trying to make a point about chromosomes etc!

BUT the upshot of all of this sciencing will be (because it is bloody logical and biologically correct) that men will compete in male sports, women will compete in female sports.

Athletes with DSD will have to fight for a place in sport, and that science might help them. it may not.

Transwomen will have to fight for a place in sport.. and that science probably won't help them a jot!

[quote Bizawit]@titchy err yeh so am I. And I’ve already explained twice what it has to do with this debate.[/quote]
I missed your explanation then - apologies. Would you mind saying again what DSD has to do with trans given that trans people don't have a DSD. Thanks!

I know the science- I do this for a living. People with Swyer syndrome are designated female. Really???

Let me see.

Yes. People with Swyer are 'designated' female, they usually live female lives as the syndrome does not become apparent until puberty.

But, if you wok in the area, you will also know about the awful issues with the female sex organs.

If you do work in the area you will be only too well acquainted with the sometimes awful disparity between the lived experience and the genetic reality.

@midgebabe actually CAH is the most common sex variation. The point is that bodies are varied and ambiguous- so is the human brain. We know very little about the science of being trans. Not that that should matter. However trans people came to be, they are here and they are real. Nobody is denying the reality of human bodies or biology, and that biology is real, but some people want a monopoly of a very fundamentalist definition of sex that they think justifies treating others who are different to them , or who do not conform to binary sex , in a way that is dehumanising and incompatible with their dignity. This is how Caster Semenya has been treated in sport, and this is how trans people are treated all the time.

One of the issues I have with them is that they keep spray painting this rubbish all over the neighbourhood I live in.

They have every right that the rest of us have.

I also don't appreciate being referred to as a "cis woman"

Oh and their activists are hostile little shits.

www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jun/18/caster-semenya-iaaf-athletics-guinea-pig

Caster’s DSD has been reported on. Caster has 5 alpha reductase deficiency. XY chromosomes, quite likely did look female at birth but would have androgenised at puberty due to internal testes. The “female with hyperandrogenism” angle was promoted but “biological male with Male levels of testosterone from testes” is more accurate.

From a sporting perspective, Caster responds to the testosterone made from those testes and therefore has a massive advantage over women.

I can’t find the clapping icon thing but there are so many brave posts and posters on here I want to clap to. This is a bloody depressing topic in so many ways - I can’t believe we’re even having to argue the point that it’s not women who are the problem here - but reading posts by women such as @michelleoftheresistance @isabellerossignol and @ODFOx is immensely fortifying, thank you all.

You know what? There is no point problem with trans identifying people. There is a massive problem with trans rights activists and the associated media. Because this:

and this is how trans people are treated all the time.

Not true. Probably was true about 20 years ago amongst those with gender dysphoria.

Not now though. Karen White. Yaniv. And a multitude of others. Violent males. Not a poorly treated underclass.

@titchy the again then for you. The point is that human bodies are varied and ambiguous- so is the human brain, which is a part of the body. Being trans is different to having a sex variation ( as defined by medicine and science). Both groups of people however suffer discrimination because their bodies and identities do not conform to social and biological definitions of binary sex/ gender. Somebody raised the question of whether trans women should be allowed to compete in female sports. I suggested that absolutist definitions of sex in sport where harmful , not only to trans women , but also other groups of women whose bodies do not conform to binary sex ideals- Caster Semenya being an example of someone suffering because of this. We know very little about the science of being trans. But it shouldn’t matter. However trans people came to be, they are here and they are real. Nobody is denying the reality of human bodies or biology, and that biology is real, but some people want a monopoly of a very fundamentalist definition of sex that they think justifies treating others who are different to them , or who do not conform to binary sex , in a way that is dehumanising and incompatible with their dignity. This is how Caster Semenya has been treated in sport, and this is how trans people are treated all the time.

@nolongersurprised

www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jun/18/caster-semenya-iaaf-athletics-guinea-pig

Caster’s DSD has been reported on. Caster has 5 alpha reductase deficiency. XY chromosomes, quite likely did look female at birth but would have androgenised at puberty due to internal testes. The “female with hyperandrogenism” angle was promoted but “biological male with Male levels of testosterone from testes” is more accurate.

From a sporting perspective, Caster responds to the testosterone made from those testes and therefore has a massive advantage over women.

Not only this, but Caster Semenya and the team supporting Semenya, including the South African athletics association, found out that Semenya has 5 alpha reductase deficiency and is biologically male around the age of 18-19. Throughout Semenya’s entire racing career it was known that Semenya had the biological advantages of being male but contributed to race anyway.

All three medalists of the Rio Olympics women’s 800m final are biological males.

I posted on someone's thread about the transphobic JK Rowling today. I had posted something on the persons feed previously and they had deleted it. I wish they had deleted this one. I made a valid and concise point (ish-I'm terrible at debate and not too sure where I stand on the issue but what if read of JK Rowling fits) and it made me dread every time I had a notification come through in the end.

I rarely post on social media because I hate it. No one has constructive discussions. It's a barrage of anger, vile language and "trans women are women" by a thousand people who all like the other people's comments that say the same thing. They are so willing to prove their liberalness that they forget the big picture and actually seem like a hate filled right winger.

Two lovely ladies said what I said and liked my comments and two discussed it with me. Everyone else made me feel on edge.

Following this thread with interest.

Well colour me, and Titchy, patronised!

Sex is binary, get over it , and affects out physical bodies.

Only people with regressive stereotypical attitudes would think that sex affects our brains, personalities or capabilities

Only people with regressive stereotypical attitudes would think that ones sex is some combination of body and brain.

When I see that on average transwomen are physically as weak as women and as likely to sex offend as women then I will consider them women. But it turns out that one both those counts, transwomen are like men not women . Who would have guessed!

the only times I personally offer differential treatment to men and women is when one or both of those factors is relevant. Ie when a physically weaker human being is at risk or could be hurt or disadvantaged , mentally or physically , just because of their misfortune in being born in a female body.

Caster Semenya hasn’t suffered. Semenya has used known biological male advantage to win medals at major championships, money at Diamond league events, sponsorship and money, all at the expense of biological females.

Ah, I see your confusion....There is no biological definition of gender, just sex