What’s the problem with Trans?

[Karenista]

Posting for traffic:
Can someone please take the time to explain to me what the issue is with trans women? Or trans rights in general?

I consider myself a feminist, but since reading all the posts about publicly ‘coming out as GC’, I now feel... almost... not feminist enough because I believe in trans rights.

Where’s the middle ground? Or am I now going to feel alienated from ‘GC feminists?’

Why are brain scans or biopsies not part of the dx process

Exactly. If being trans was so objective and provable (which it should be really if we are going to change laws relating to women's rights) then how come there isn't a provable medical diagnosis for it?

I was reading some stuff from GIRES the other day (as they are bloody encroaching on my kids new RSE curriculum) and this is from a paper (written by one of the founders of GIRES. Lots of talk about brain scans proving this and that about how being trans is provable and then at the end it says this.

So what they are essentially saying is 'despite carrying out experiments, we can't actually prove transgenderism scientifically, so your just gonna have to believe us and bow to our demands anyway'.

Thanks for bringing this up. It's such a delicate issue and so I haven't dared to ask any questions in RL. Especially not where I now live (Vancouver, Canada). The Canadians are hyper-sensitive to transgender rights, etc.

Here is some useful information for you. I would also suggest you follow Munroe Bergdorf on social media should you wish to educate yourself further

Pure gold only read this far but I'm sure it gets even better

Well if there was a word for someone who had 4 fingers and 11 toes then that word should not have its definition altered because it hurts the feelings of those who wish they only had 4 toes right? I mean you couldnt just chop off some fingers sew one to your foot and claim to he the same right?

@ThatsHowWeRowl but if someone has 4 fingers And 11 toes, do you insist that really, deep down they are a person with 5 fingers And 5 toes ??

That analogy wasn't referring to transgender people, it was referring to the invoking of people with DSDs to 'prove' that sex isn't binary.

Tired. About to go bed. So. Short reply.

Quit eroding women & our rights

Cis is offensive pack that shit in.

Now, my overies and I are off to sleep.

Piss off

Ps I love J K Rowling 😘

[quote Bizawit]@ThatsHowWeRowl but if someone has 4 fingers And 11 toes, do you insist that really, deep down they are a person with 5 fingers And 5 toes ??[/quote]
Good question. If someone has, I don't know, let's say a penis and a beard, do you insist that really, deep down they are a person with a vagina?

On the subject of “sexed brains” www.theguardian.com/books/2019/mar/05/the-gendered-brain-gina-rippon-review

Are transmen classed as men in situations where first born males can inherit?

@poppydull

Are transmen classed as men in situations where first born males can inherit?

Nope

poppy of course not. Men are not racing to declare that trans men are men.

Note that the Freemasons also allow transwomen, providing they joined when they were men.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45030075

No transmen though, dread the thought!

@Katypyee

Feminism is about the liberation of females. Supporting that is feminist.
Supporting transwomen isn't feminism because they aren't female, but it is compassionate.
You can be both, you can care and fight for more than one group of people at a time.
I'm a feminist who deeply cares about (particularly vulnerable) men.
I see how patriarchy and strict gender norms hurt both sexes. But if I fight against this common enemy on behalf of females this is feminism. If I fight on behalf of men I believe that's compassion. It doesn't make me a bad feminist. I don't want men commuting suicide because they have been socialised to struggle expressing emotions for example. I don't want boys growing up to think they have to act a certain way to be considered men.
If by fighting for 'rights' for males I eroded those of females though, that isn't and couldn't be feminism.

Bizawat I'm not sure that there is a 'science of trans' in any meaningful sense, is there?

There is biological science which documents two sexes.

There are DSD's which, as anomalies, confirm the scientific truth of two sexes.

Of course trans people exist and have the same rights at everyone else and, in the UK, there is currently no movement to remove those rights.

@RufustheRowlingReindeer & @G5000 well I'm shocked! Has anyone lobbied the powers that be that decide this & labelled them discriminatory? I'm going with a no.

The double standards are a joke.

Slight tangent, but Gina Rippon, whose book “The Gendered Brain” I referenced above, is one of the guestS on this weeks episode of Radio 4’s “The Infinite Monkey Cage” which is titled “The Human Brain”. No idea if they talk about the gender aspect but it’s a show always worth listening to,

Yes it is. But a brain in a male body is by definition a male brain. That brain originated from the same single cell that the rest of that male body originated from, it's a male brain.

The idea that it's possible for a 'lady brain' to somehow end up in a male body at some stage has absolutely no basis in science. There is no medical consensus which says that you would be able to look at different brains, on say a brain scan, and be able to tell with absolute certainty which were male brains and which were female. In order to determine that for certain, you would have to take cell samples and look at chromosomes.

If a male doesn't fit into the box of what men should be and identifies more closely with stereotypes about females, then that isn't because something is wrong with their brain, its because those boxes of what men and women should be, and what they should identify with, are bullshit.

Great post. It's an ideological view, not a scientific one.

FFS I cannot believe we are having to have the same old sexist arguments again 1980's style.

Just this week I had a male colleague, backed up by other male colleagues, whose opinions I respect, try to tell me that we should market a highly niche technical product differently to men and women because well ultimately when I pressed it came down to because everybody knows women make decisions emotionally not rationally and like laughing over salad, you'll never sell to them with the same pitch you use to sell to the men.

I am starting to think that the woke is seeping into everyday life, validating not trans identities but sexist beliefs. Now my colleagues are comfortable saying that obviously men and women think totally differently. Science innit.

Have a read of this.

photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOwetuUmIgGwmTmu9rcxDdWeOMbKpckEyvqpT49pz2yemZYS3rNYqH16pZc5IuLcQ/photo/AF1QipN16HiFNk-NJigaUFyi0m3LjpYEYam02812SLM_?key=VVlEX21sNXAzVEprMGZmWmNqd3RPc1RiN095STdn

That one from the young lesbian asking for help to fix herself because she wasn't sexually attracted to her girlfriend's penis... It made me want to cry.

It does rather feel like anyone born with a penis gets priority when it comes to perception of hurt feelings, sense of safety, identity and validation.

And the statements positioned as fact with no actual sources (such as the fact trans people have an evidenced lack of access to higher education) by people including @amijustparanoidorjuststoned seem to support my views on this.

I legitimately asked for sources / research on this as I genuinely want to be as well informed as possible on this subject but no sources / research was shared. That does nothing but undermine alternative viewpoints which does a discredit to the point of view of such posters.

I would love to have a reasonable and well thought out discussion about all of this but it does rather rely on supporting evidence. My trans friends are baffled by the statements positioned as fact essentially on their behalf. They do more damage to my trans friends' day to day life than almost anything else as they presume to speak for them.

TRAs do not speak for

Sorry pressed post too soon by accident...

TRAs do not speak for the vast majority of decent, empathetic and reasonable trans people.

TRAs make their lives harder not easier and presume to be the voice of all trans people, who are not an homogenous group - just like women aren't.

TRAs do not speak for the vast majority of decent, empathetic and reasonable trans people

Until recently I struggled with the whole GC argument. The transwomen I'd read about were decent people who just wanted to be accepted for what they were and had been down a long hard road to get there.
But those decent people aren't speaking up (or rarely) and are allowing the TRAs to speak for them. They need to stand and be counted.
I also suspect many TRAs aren't even trans, but are basement dwelling mysogynist trolls. Unfortunately they are the voices screaming the loudest.

I echo all the points above about protecting women's safe spaces and rights.

As a GC feminist part of what I believe in is actually criticising the concept of 'gender' altogether - it is a social construct. The idea of gender is based on sexist stereotypes of what a woman or man is/does/behaves/thinks/feels/wears/looks ect.

The notion of femininity is based on sexist stereotypes of what a female should be and it. The same for masculinity and males.

The only thing that makes a woman is being born female and making it to 18. (Definition of woman - an adult human female). The only thing that makes a man is being born male and making it to 18. Beyond this any ideas of what a woman or man is is stereotyping.

If I asked you 'what is a woman?' What would you say?
If you say

• someone who identifies as a woman. Well then a woman still need to be a thing in itself in order to be identified with.
• if you say someone who 'feels like a woman'. Well what does that mean? How can someone feel like a woman beyond feeling like they identify which traditional characteristic that women hold (passive, quiet, polite ect)
• if you say someone who looks/does/behaves X,Y,Z that is all based on sexist stereotypes.

A woman is a woman no matter how she behaves, looks or lives her life, the only thing that makes her a woman is biology and as biology is innate fact it is not something that can be identified with. Woman is just a state of being, that state of being can have biological ramifications (periods, cancer of sex organs ect) but beyond that the state of being dictates nothing else about a person.

As a gender critical feminist I aim for a world in which gender isn't a thing. In which anyone can dress/behave/look ect however they want without a label being applied to. Where sex stereotypes are eliminated and there is no expectation put on anyone for their sex and no one is outside the norm for not acting the traditional way that is identified with their sex (feminism or masculine).