Sick of being called Karen

[frog22]

Listening to Radio 4 and Caroline Hirons is on and she has already used the term Karen to refer to her followers. I'm just sick of it. It's as bad as calling a woman the B word or C word!

Why would she do it? Why do women do it to other women?

It's a disgusting term which seems to have no real meaning Except to berate women with. Stand up for yourself and complain regarding service- you're being a Karen. Women who clearly have mental health issues, going off and getting filmed- Karen. The term is now attached to any women, ever doing anything, and is offensive, mysoginistic, and designed to humiliate. But it's aimed at women, so obviously if you can't take, you must be one.......

Yes, agree. It’s witch-hunting.

I would only worry if the K word was used regularly by people I know in real life and then would deal with it. It hasn't taken off here as it has in the USA, thankfully, and I agree it is horrible. Totally unfair. We need to stamp it out whenever we encounter it.

I'd never heard of Caroline Hirons and will now look her up.

Mnhq has banned the user above. So hopefully the insult is being taken more seriously. I, too, feel sorry for women named Karen and this is another form of witch hunting. Nothing changes. Awful misogyny.

Agreed - it's just another way of shutting women up.

I hate it. How can it not be a racist slur when it’s exclusively used against white women? Just another stick to beat us with and it’s beyond depressing that women are also using it against each other.

@SemperIdem

It’s offensive to me because it’s used to dismiss, belittle and shut down middle aged, white, working class women

It’s very much not aimed at working class women. Rather, middle class women who think they’re a cut above the rest and therefore have a tendency to treat people, mostly in retail and hospitality, like serfs and speak to them appallingly.

I’ve had extensive experience of such behaviour. You do get numb to it after a while. However what is less feminist - calling a woman who behaves in such a way a name, or being the woman who seems to thrive off belittling other women via verbal aggression and class privilege?

I do feel quite sorry for women actually called Karen at the moment. But the meme’s will pass long before the entitled, unpleasant behaviour from those currently being called “a Karen” does.

I work in a public facing, professional job and find this behaviour equally, if not more so, from men than women.

Maybe it’s because I’m female and they feel that they can dominate or subconsciously consider a woman less worthy of their respect. Maybe men are more reactive to women who stand up for themselves and so have really latched on to this term, giving it a misogynistic flavour that it didn’t start off with.

There’s an interesting section in “invisible women” about how words such as “assertive” are considered positive when describing a man in an interview/cv but negative when attached to a woman. I think the gendered element is because society still expects women to be less assertive than men. The unfairness is then compounded because any woman complaining about Karen seems to prove the point that she is one.

Alternatively, from my own part as a woman, I can often identify a woman’s unreasonable behaviour may actually be down to anxiety or stress and diffuse this more easily, while the same emotions in a man may come across as anger/aggression which makes me feel more defensive/less confident in my communication with them. So I actually find men’s behaviour more difficult.

I would never call someone a gendered insult tho, even in my mind... beyond thinking that perhaps they’re being a bit of a d*ck about something when they really didn’t need to be, and this would apply to men and women.

@Rupertbeartrousers

Spot on.

@frog22

*I find it hard to believe that I'd be eating a sausage in a restaurant. If I did and they had decided to freeze it before cooking it I'd let them know about their mistake and give them the opportunity to put it right.

I don't pay for a meal until we've finished and the server brings me the bill so I'd never need to ask for a refund. I wouldn't ask for the manager because from experience I find the serving staff are always really good at resolving issues.*

So you are a Karen, then

@Iggi999

Beagleeagle fuck off

Evidently, we need to be less sensitive about descriptors being used to highlight our class privilege. Instead of pushing back on it we need to address our behaviour and entitlement towards service staff and women from minority ethnicity groups.. they're not just making up that there's a tendency amongst a certain social group to be rude, entitled and dismissive towards them.. I've seen it myself.

Ugh I hate it, so mysogonist and offensive

People can't use slut/fat etc any more as it is shaming so they have found another put down so prevent women from speaking up for themselves

Newsflash- people of bith sexes from all over the world can be horrible people, just because SM/MS tricks us into thinking it's one particular group of people does not make it so.

@BeagleEagle

I agree that there absolutely is from some people but it is also from entitled men and to single out and put the focus on women in this way doesn’t sit within that experience.

I remember my retail days with horror and there really was a difficult type who usually needed attention and prob had some underlying mental illness but that is distinct from women making reasonable demands on a service they are paying for and for too long have had to be meek. It is no coincidence to me that just at a time we are finding our voice and young women and girls, particularly of colour, are able to articulate their needs, we are being picked off individually as targets. This does not come from the place of empowering PoC that I think it is presented as, imv.

Beagle I'm not going to restart all the discussions on this as there have been very detailed threads on it before. You are absolutely wrong to think this insult is only used to a certain class of women; or that it is only used towards women who are unpleasant; or women who are racist. It is absolutely categorically used against any middle aged woman who tries to have a voice. We are supposed to put up and shut up; we are mothers or simply invisible beings. You are very very wrong and have bought into a big pile of steaming misogyny.

[quote LadyfromtheBelleEpoque]@BeagleEagle

I agree that there absolutely is from some people but it is also from entitled men and to single out and put the focus on women in this way doesn’t sit within that experience.

I remember my retail days with horror and there really was a difficult type who usually needed attention and prob had some underlying mental illness but that is distinct from women making reasonable demands on a service they are paying for and for too long have had to be meek. It is no coincidence to me that just at a time we are finding our voice and young women and girls, particularly of colour, are able to articulate their needs, we are being picked off individually as targets. This does not come from the place of empowering PoC that I think it is presented as, imv.[/quote]
TBF I was being a bit incendiary, my fault. But I think both of these things are true:

1. Many people are using the term to describe attitudes and behaviours towards ethnic minority people, primarily women, by middle class white women. A lot of criticism towards the term is dismissive and defensive.

1. The term has been co-opted by misogynists who just want to have a go at middle aged women, using their whiteness as a veneer of acceptability.

Going ahead, instead of saying: "I hate this meme it needs to die a death ;-;" we should address the legitimate use of it, do better with our own behaviour, but also call out the jerks who don't give a fuck about race and are just trying to put down assertive women.

I maintain that anyone who finds it hard to believe that they'd eat a sausage in a restaurant is a bit of a one though ;)

@Iggi999

Beagle I'm not going to restart all the discussions on this as there have been very detailed threads on it before. You are absolutely wrong to think this insult is only used to a certain class of women; or that it is only used towards women who are unpleasant; or women who are racist. It is absolutely categorically used against any middle aged woman who tries to have a voice. We are supposed to put up and shut up; we are mothers or simply invisible beings. You are very very wrong and have bought into a big pile of steaming misogyny.

What groups are you hanging out in that it is as ubiquitous as you seem to believe it is? Are you in London or spending too much time on twitter? In my workplace, most people haven't heard of it. I think you're taking a handful of examples and applying it en masse, it really doesn't reach that far.

Beagle I don't even know what point you are making now. I neither live in London (couldn't be much further away) nor hang out on Twitter - but if you care to look you will find lots of references to this term on Facebook, tiktok, and Twitter. It would be lovely to say that these places don't affect you if you don't spend time on them. They are part of the culture we live in. I've heard a work colleague use it.
I have never actually heard it used against a woman who was engaged in any act of racism. I am also unconvinced it even had its origins in this but would need to find the explanation posted by another mumsnetter. This is not a successful way to tackle the racism endemic in any society.

This made me laugh when it first started as my bitch ex next door neighbour was called Karen. I knew it would make her rage. I would say she is particularly 'Karen-esque' but actually no, she is just a bitch who made our lives hell.

Anyway, I see she has now rebranded herself as Karen C to Kat C. Makes me laugh even harder. (at her, not at the other people who really are called Karen).

Am sure she's here, so if you are reading this, then you are fooling nobody with your new 'Kat' name.

So much energy and enthusiasm on this thread about not using the name Karen. Maybe you should all use the energy and enthusiasm to do anti-racist work on yourselves.

Also people on here saying the UK isn't racist, please give me a break. The racism here is covert, gaslighting and microaggressions, which I've been put through my whole life, mostly from white women.

Also the Karen behaviour is towards shop assistants and people with low paid jobs who are usually BAME. I have myself seen the way a BAME assistant is talked to and the difference when a white assistant come out.

And are male customers noticeably more respectful then? If not, what is the word for that?

@Iggi999

Beagle I don't even know what point you are making now. I neither live in London (couldn't be much further away) nor hang out on Twitter - but if you care to look you will find lots of references to this term on Facebook, tiktok, and Twitter. It would be lovely to say that these places don't affect you if you don't spend time on them. They are part of the culture we live in. I've heard a work colleague use it. I have never actually heard it used against a woman who was engaged in any act of racism. I am also unconvinced it even had its origins in this but would need to find the explanation posted by another mumsnetter. This is not a successful way to tackle the racism endemic in any society.

In another mumsnet threat, people were using the term Roy to describe a man with a particularly annoying set of traits. They were venting about Roy because Roy is annoying. Karen is annoying too, if someone calls you Karen at work to refer to you being assertive then that's worth a complaint. People circlejerking on tiktok about a woman yelling at a service worker is harmless and it speaks to our sensitivity that we're writing guardian thinkpieces about it. I remember the days of people saying shit like 'laquisha' and the screaming silence from white women about it (many were probably joining in) but now Karen's knocking about, we have to analyse it to death. If you're being called Karen, analyse your behaviour. if you've done nothing wrong, move on. It's mostly zoomers saying it anyway and it's a rite of passage to be annoying when you're 18. Next there'll be a thread calling the 'side partings are for old women' joke misogynistic.

I’m not a Karen but I find the saying really bloody boring, disrespectful and annoying now.

“Oh you’re such a Karen” what does that even mean?! Like a Cindy, Alice or Jessica can’t fucking complain? Get on.

@aluvss

So much energy and enthusiasm on this thread about not using the name Karen. Maybe you should all use the energy and enthusiasm to do anti-racist work on yourselves.

Also people on here saying the UK isn't racist, please give me a break. The racism here is covert, gaslighting and microaggressions, which I've been put through my whole life, mostly from white women.

Also the Karen behaviour is towards shop assistants and people with low paid jobs who are usually BAME. I have myself seen the way a BAME assistant is talked to and the difference when a white assistant come out.

Yep, this. I hope as much energy goes into addressing structural racism in the workplace as there is being expended getting annoyed about kids joking around on the internet.

@ItsIgginningtolooklikelockdown

And are male customers noticeably more respectful then? If not, what is the word for that?

Let's come up with one - I vote Barry

I agree with some of your last post Beagle
But this stood out for me - If you're being called Karen, analyse your behaviour
Swap the word "slut", "whore" etc in (basically any other slur used against women) and would you ask the person on the receiving end to "analyse their behaviour"?