Sick of being called Karen

[frog22]

Listening to Radio 4 and Caroline Hirons is on and she has already used the term Karen to refer to her followers. I'm just sick of it. It's as bad as calling a woman the B word or C word!

Why would she do it? Why do women do it to other women?

It's sexist shite, blaming women for male violence. At this point, Karen pretty much means 'bitch', and is a gift to all the people who desperately want to call women bitches but don't want to look bad.

There's absolutely nothing new to see here, it's the same as it ever was.

MorrisZapp I think it was you who posted the most marvellous post about this on an earlier thread?

This is the sort of karen meme that floods Facebook. In fact I lifted this very meme from a cat group I am a member of. Posted by someone who thought they were being funny with a complete lack of brains cells in doing so.
How does this address racism, entitlement or any other perceived behaviour?

Is it a convenient way to ignore what "Karen" means?

You do miss the point. I think we all know what it broadly means, although clearly it also means different and /or additional things to different people depending on who they are and where they come from. And of course these people do exist, although generally the examples provided online are American examples. I have come across a few older men and women who are a little like this, and it really is a few compared to the overall population, although screaming and shouting in in the street, in shops etc in that manner at black people or service staff (alongside all the other behaviours coined as Karen's), isn't generally a British thing, regardless of their underlying thoughts. They're more likely to say thank you for a shit service and then complain to their friends about it afterwards.

The problem with social media bringing people together is many seem to think the problems in American problems are the same in Britain,and they are not the same, (although British culture is slowly moving in that direction becuse of it). But if I see racism or discrimination in any form, I call it out for what it is. It's not necessary to reduce one group of people, white middle aged working class women, down to a single name or hive mind and blame them for structural racism and all the other ills of the world. It's just a soft target isn't it, rooted in snobbery and classism.

*It's sexist shite, blaming women for male violence. At this point, Karen pretty much means 'bitch', and is a gift to all the people who desperately want to call women bitches but don't want to look bad.

There's absolutely nothing new to see here, it's the same as it ever was.*

^This 100%, I think. It's also a way to ensure a post isn't deleted on Mumsnet. If you were to say, 'you're a bitch' your post would be deleted. Whereas 'you're a Karen' wouldn't be.

HeLa1

Thanks for that, keep on using my name as a descriptor for shitty behaviour, you've no idea how grateful I am for that.
There are plenty of words in the dictionary that cover the behaviour you are describing, but you are obviously too lazy to use them.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

MorrisZapp I think it was you who posted the most marvellous post about this on an earlier thread?

Oh you are kind! Yes I've posted on quite a few Karen threads, I'm definitely running out of steam now though :)

I love my name, I'm proud of it, and I'm proud of my seventies childhood etc too. I give nary a crap about my lovely name being hijacked by idiots on the interwebs. I will always care deeply about misogyny though.

i suppose in a way it IS a useful term- it reveals the unthinking sexism and w/c hatred of those using it.

i suppose in a way it IS a useful term- it reveals the unthinking sexism and w/c hatred of those using it.

Very true. Maybe, in the words of the insufferable and highly privileged Amelia Demoldenburg and Charlotte Riley (in their appalling BBC sounds podcast) when castigating so called karens (aka white working class middle aged women) they can take their own advice and read a book and educate themselves about what they really mean when they call people a Karen. It's always better to dig down and be honest with oneself.

It's not necessary to reduce one group of people, white middle aged working class women, down to a single name or hive mind and blame them for structural racism and all the other ills of the world. It's just a soft target isn't it, rooted in snobbery and classism.

This. Seems ridiculous to fight racism with more prejudice.

Hmmm, I wonder if the “educated” ones on here regularly curl their lip at every slightly common middle-aged woman they encounter. That’s a lot of curling to be done: shop workers, nurses, admin workers...

It is ridiculous how various matters are being seized upon eagerly here by those desperate to join in with issues particular to the US. I know very well what a “Karen” is in America (eg Central Park woman) but there is no directly comparable woman in the UK. So it has become an insult for any “hairdo” type and, still worse, any woman at all not in the first flush of youth and especially one who voices an opinion. Look at all the wokists calling the women who complained about that BBC Sounds podcast “Karens” for raising an objection to it.

Let’s dig a little deeper into the Karen meme.

Karen was a Scandinavian peasant name. Scandinavians who migrated to the US were called “Square heads” several generations ago because they often seemed to have prominent, square-ish foreheads to the WASPs already in America.

Often the young women at the end of the 1800s whose families had immigrated to the Midwest from Scandinavia lived and worked in the homes of established farmers as servants. They did it to make money for their families and learn English.

In the 20th century, despite her square forehead, Karen was seen as rather attractive. Out come the dumb blonde jokes, and beer ads with “The SwedishTeam.” Karen went from humble servant to willing sex object.

Now Karen is all grown up and would like to assert herself, be taken seriously and be given a modicum if respect. Well that won’t do! Silly cow. Let’s sneer at her and undermine her. How dare she! She should know her place: to facilitate other people’s wants and needs and to make herself pleasant to others.

I have never heard of 'Karen' being used in a derogatory way at all. Where did this come from? What do people think it is supposed to mean?

I think it is a lovely name.

There are so many people on this thread that seem overly focused on the choice of the name "Karen" as the main issue.

It is the main issue. There are undoubtedly unpleasant entitled aggressive people out there, but why do they need to be referred to as Karens?

The problem is the evolution of the use..Karen was originally used to call out women that made a scene in order to intimidate customer facing staff, or racially profile someone due to some sense of white entitlement or something.

Now a woman can politely complain on her local village Facebook group about dog poo in the play park for the third time that week and she's she'll get a reply that goes

'Get a life, Karen'

It's not good.

I hate it. I think the people who use are idiots.
The male equivalent are ‘kevin’ apparently but does not really seem to be used.
Ridiculous
Lacks ability to debate when you resort to using this.
It’s sexist and stupid

@DishRanAwayWithTheSpoon

Karen is used to belittle and dismiss normally middle aged women in this country. Ive seen it used as an excuse for men to harrass women on SM.

Not to mention karen is just really really not funny,

Or it is to highlight the massively entitled, unreasonable and often discriminatory behaviour of a significant group of white middle class women?

Or it is to highlight the massively entitled, unreasonable and often discriminatory behaviour of a significant group of white middle class women?

No. It's not. It's used far beyond this context now, to put older women down for any reason, and anyone who pretends they don't know that is being dishonest.

I'm with you, @frog22. I hate the term. Hate it, hate it.

I actually find swear words less offensive because people have used them as casual terminology for years and they have lost their power.

Karen is a term people have only recently started using on an everyday basis during the last year, and it makes me hugely uncomfortable because it's used to shut down women only, and it feels personal. In my head, there's a disconnect with, for example, the word bitch. I know it's used to shut down women - or as a further slur on people deemed to be behaving like women - but it's a word that doesn't feel personal.

Every time I heard the term being thrown around, I feel awful for anyone actually called Karen. It was their name. There are lots of Karens in the world of all ages who have grown up being proud to be called Karen, who have accomplished brilliant things as Karen, and now are all made to feel shit and uncomfortable about a name they have used their whole lives to represent them.

It could happen to any of us. The world could wake up one day and start appropriating any common female name and using it to mean something awful. And I think it's simply abhorrent to treat other women this way. If you don't like the way a woman is behaving, call her out on it. Sometimes women - like men - can behave badly. But don't take the name that some wonderful, brilliant woman has used her whole life long to represent all of her kindness, talent and joy to shut down another woman, who probably has a different name of her own.

I think using Karen as an insult rather than a name is deeply sexist, and the people who use it that way are people I see in a different light.

I think another part of why it upsets me so much is I never heard anyone using the term before the pandemic hit. A lot of people have found the last year unbearable, and I always picture some wonderful woman called Karen at the end of her rope after a year in which her family and friends have suffered deaths, long Covid, job losses and all other kinds of pandemic fun, and on top of it - she hears people using her name as an insult. We know people are struggling now. We know people are hanging on by a thread - and when some women already feel isolated and silenced and alone, we still find it socially acceptable to take their name and destroy it.

A lot of women are happy to change their surnames, so often, their first name is the only name that's truly theirs forever. That's another part of why this troubles me so much. Stick a woman in a bad, abusive marriage where like many women, she's changed her surname - her first name is the only piece of her she has left and if she happens to be called Karen, we tell her that piece is worthless.

I'm not called Karen, but I cannot stop empathising with anyone who is. I find hijacking someone's name in this way to be disgusting, and I wish @mnhq would see it for what it is and take a stand. I don't care if people want to criticise me for things that I've done badly - I will own that behaviour - but don't beat down another woman to have a go at me. Whatever I do badly is my fault and my fault alone - don't bring some other woman into it.