Sick of being called Karen

[frog22]

Listening to Radio 4 and Caroline Hirons is on and she has already used the term Karen to refer to her followers. I'm just sick of it. It's as bad as calling a woman the B word or C word!

Why would she do it? Why do women do it to other women?

@HeLa1

Renaggie, thank you for such a thoughtful response. I do feel sympathy for people called “Karen” who are the furthest thing from a “Karen”. I can relate as I was made fun of for my name growing up and I’ve also read many stories of POC called “Karen” who now have to contend with their name being a symbol of racism which is no doubt extremely confusing.

To me “Karen” still offers a useful description of certain behaviours typical in a racist society that glorifies mediocre people due to their whiteness. And I vehemently believe it should only be used to describe the insidious racism even people without much power (white women) contribute to and not any woman being mean to you. I agree with you on “Karen” becoming a term to highlight the structural racism that encompasses the lives of any black and brown person.

Thank you for reading and responding and although we do agree on somethings, such as the need to address structural racism, we will have to agree to disagree about the use of a specific female name. Poor ‘Karen’ isn’t just racist, she is middle aged with a dodgy haircut; she is a soccer mom with 3 kids; she is a menace to customer service staff and always asking for the manager; she took the kids in a divorce; bought her Nintendo to a party and now she is now also responsible for the Covid 19 pandemic because she wouldn’t wear a mask....

*brought her Nintendo

so even though you know its hurtful to poc called karen, even though you know its hurtful to karens who are far from 'karen' and even though you know its often used to describe behaviour thats not racist and even though you presumably accept that its men not women who've created these power structures, you still think karen is a 'useful' descriptor.

you're a complete sophie arent you.

I just don't understand the need for an actual name at all, when it's obviously going to cause offence to women who have that name, whether POC or white. Just call a spade a spade, if they're behaving in a way that's racist, call them out on that behaviour. All you're achieving when calling a woman a 'Karen' online is offend women with that name. Presumably the actual woman you're attacking is long gone by then.

Renaggie Yeah we’ll have to agree to disagree. Terms are always appropriated by misogynists, racists and homophobes, and to me, as long as those terms continue to serve a purpose for the disenfranchised groups, they can still continue to use it.

Helmetbymidnight Yes I do believe Karen is a useful term. White men are not the sole orchestrators of racism and I am tired of this narrative. Yes in the Patriarchy, white women lack the power afforded to white men but they still benefit from white privilege. And the majority of the “Karens” I’ve seen were using this white privilege to subjugate black and brown people. Until racism is exterminated, I along with other POC* will continue to use “Karen”.

*I cannot speak for all POC. Some may use it, some may not.

But why use the name 'Karen', that's what you're refusing to answer? There are so many other women's names after all.

No one is suggesting that there aren't any white women who make use of white privilege, and yes, they should be called out on it, no question. But it isn't those women that get hurt by you using the name 'Karen'. It's innocent women, some of them who are POC, who get hurt.

How does that help with the battle against institutional racism?

I meant thar those women, whether white or POC, who get hurt, simply because their name is Karen.

Yes I do believe Karen is a useful term.

Typical response from an over privileged private / boarding school type sneering at white working class women.

HeLa1 - you sound the most dreadful snob.

@HeLa1

Renaggie Yeah we’ll have to agree to disagree. Terms are always appropriated by misogynists, racists and homophobes, and to me, as long as those terms continue to serve a purpose for the disenfranchised groups, they can still continue to use it.

Helmetbymidnight Yes I do believe Karen is a useful term. White men are not the sole orchestrators of racism and I am tired of this narrative. Yes in the Patriarchy, white women lack the power afforded to white men but they still benefit from white privilege. And the majority of the “Karens” I’ve seen were using this white privilege to subjugate black and brown people. Until racism is exterminated, I along with other POC* will continue to use “Karen”.

*I cannot speak for all POC. Some may use it, some may not.

I just think ‘Karen’ is reductionist and lazy and just now means women I hate. It has no real power other than to express the users’ own prejudices. You might be tired of the narrative but it doesn’t make it less true. If you want to punch up, punch higher, otherwise you are just colluding with the status quo, White working class women might be more vilified, but what does that really achieve?

You should ask to speak to her manager

You should ask to speak to her manager

That's generally reserved for the over privileged sneery types with their cancel culture.

“Karen” is far from the only typically white woman’s name that is used. Becky, Patty, Katie are all names I’ve seen used. Why a woman’s name ? I didn’t come up with the term so I don’t know for sure. If I were to guess I would say the type of low level racism a Karen does is unique to white women. White men typically have more power to commit more dangerous acts.

You should ask to speak to her manager

That’s so funny. No one has done that joke before on this thread or on others. You are a true original.

@HeLa1

“Karen” is far from the only typically white woman’s name that is used. Becky, Patty, Katie are all names I’ve seen used. Why a woman’s name ? I didn’t come up with the term so I don’t know for sure. If I were to guess I would say the type of low level racism a Karen does is unique to white women. White men typically have more power to commit more dangerous acts.

‘Karen’ has traction because it has been used other contexts. That is why it was chosen. It has been around for a while in different guises. ‘Mean Girls’ is another supposed origin but who the hell knows? It depends on the point of view of the user.

KarenMcKaren This is the first time someone has assumed I’m a wealthy, privileged person. I did go to a boarding school which was in Western Africa and as a day student( my parents couldn’t afford the boarding fees) before we immigrated to Britain so make of that what you want.

Even with all the money my parents put into education, I’m still firmly working class so see no reason for me to vilify white working class women. I find it very hard to believe that people have been sacked or experienced any discrimination because they are called “Karen” (I’m happy to change my mind if/when given examples). Karen is also not exclusively working class nor white, Priti Patel was called a Karen recently and she’s neither white nor working class. Even if it was exclusively white working class, it’s still punching up when used correctly by black and brown people to describe low level racism.

Even with all the money my parents put into education, I’m still firmly working class so see no reason for me to vilify white working class women.

Privately educated yet still claims to be working class. I don't think so. Your attitude is full of snobby sneery privilege all the way through this thread..

@HeLa1

KarenMcKaren This is the first time someone has assumed I’m a wealthy, privileged person. I did go to a boarding school which was in Western Africa and as a day student( my parents couldn’t afford the boarding fees) before we immigrated to Britain so make of that what you want.

Even with all the money my parents put into education, I’m still firmly working class so see no reason for me to vilify white working class women. I find it very hard to believe that people have been sacked or experienced any discrimination because they are called “Karen” (I’m happy to change my mind if/when given examples). Karen is also not exclusively working class nor white, Priti Patel was called a Karen recently and she’s neither white nor working class. Even if it was exclusively white working class, it’s still punching up when used correctly by black and brown people to describe low level racism.

Your posts are so contradictory, I am not sure that you even know what ‘Karen’ means anymore apart from women I don’t like. And that is ok, because that is how it it now used, so in a perverse sort of way, I totally agree with you. However, I respect that you acknowledge your own private school privilege. Trust me, so many people deny it.

I use the term “Karen” to describe typically white women who have a sense of entitlement due to their race. Some Working class white people, even more so in the UK (in my experience) , do demand special treatment because of their race and dismiss BAME people’s racist experiences because they have experienced classism and lack “privilege”.

Just a reminder for you on how you choose to use the word Karen, which you reserve for working class / white women. You seem to have forgotten.

I fail to see how my posts are contradictory, I would appreciate if you could point out the contradictions so I can address them and explain my points more clearly to you.

In the country I’m from, there is no free, centralised, government education. The little provision provided by the government is eaten by the millions of corrupt politicians.There are very few teachers and children are often raped by their own teachers in exchange for passing grades.

Even the poorest people have to take out loans to send at least one child to a “private” school for a way out of poverty.My dad was given to a richer family to work for them in exchange for education so he could lift his siblings out of poverty. The English state education system (that is so often complained about on here) is miles better than any education I received before moving here. My “private school” education where we did not have labs or enough classroom , where 40 children are in one class, where I was caned for misbehaviour and forced to sit out if my fees were late, where girls are still refused from getting an education and forced to underperform so the boys don’t feel bad is not the great example of my wealth privilege you assume it to be. I still acknowledge that I’m more privileged than others as I now live in the West and received some western education.

KarenMcKaren typically is the key word in that quote. White women are more likely to act in an entitled manner towards me compared to an Indian or Chinese woman (in my experience). That doesn’t mean Indian or Chinese women can’t also be racist towards black people, just that most of the time, white people are the perpetrators of anti black racism.

White women are more likely to act in an entitled manner towards me

I'm sure your casual use of Karen towards white working class women probably doesn't help with that. Is it entitlement? Or just pissed off with your snobby attitude towards them. And regardless of your education, your attitude is snobby. Of course racism does exist and I dont doubt you have experienced it. Vowing to call white middle aged working class women Karen until racism is ceases is not going to help with that. The type of woman of which you describe, are generally much much older, they are few and far between in the UK, and they don't even fit into the Karen generation. But you carry on. And things will never change. It will just increase the divide here. Between race, between class, between age. Is this what we really want?

Could I ask a question please?

If the Karen archetype didn't have the name of "Karen" or "doing a Karen", then would people be prepared to accept that the archetype actually does exist?

There are so many people on this thread that seem overly focused on the choice of the name "Karen" as the main issue.

Is it a convenient way to ignore what "Karen" means?

I think you are missing the point. It doesn't matter whether is a "Karen" or a "Saskia" or whatever.

It's a sexist put down, used by people who can't be bothered to have an original thought in their heads and need the groupthink.

Posters most definitely aren't ignoring what it means.

HeLa1 - you are a snob. You make huge generalisations about women of a certain background. It is so cliched to despise people who are, let’s face it, may or may not be racist, but most definitely are common .