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AIBU?

Sick of being called Karen

482 replies

frog22 · 11/07/2020 09:10

Listening to Radio 4 and Caroline Hirons is on and she has already used the term Karen to refer to her followers. I'm just sick of it. It's as bad as calling a woman the B word or C word!

Why would she do it? Why do women do it to other women?

OP posts:
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Wishes2020 · 06/08/2021 20:43
Hmm
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Lavender24 · 06/08/2021 20:36

I wear the label of Karen with pride. Every time I complain to a company about poor service I congratulate myself on my good Karen work. We need to take the term back and own it!!

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ChristmasFluff · 06/08/2021 20:34

It's getting so ubiquitous that it now says more about the person sayng it.

Unimaginitive. Dull. Tedious. Yawn.

It's like 'OK boomer' - I see it and my opinion of the poster drops to the floor.

They are both the resort of the terminally irrelevant - like people still calling others 'covidiots'.

It was mildly amusing once. Now it's just a sign of a brain with too few cells and even fewer conections.

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igelkott2021 · 06/08/2021 20:04

[quote inglory]@MonkeyToesOfDoom but why can't a women ask for better service/refund without being called any name? [/quote]
Because they don't have a penis! It's obvious isn't it?

you only get to have an opinion if you are male, And if you are over a certain age - well what are you doing being out at all? Old crone. Go and hide your ugliness at home.

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Tanith · 06/08/2021 17:01

I’ve seen a few recent posts online from black men and women angry about the misuse of “Karen” and its associated memes.
They say privileged white men are now using “Karen” memes to shift the blame for their own historic prejudice onto women, then using it as an excuse to bully them.

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Eggfriedpower · 06/08/2021 15:44

@KarenHalsom

It is disgusting that we get discrimated and designated with the word Karen, instead of 'Black Lives Matter', let's have 'Women Lives Matter' after all, everyone's lives matter

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
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KarenHalsom · 02/05/2021 15:05

It is disgusting that we get discrimated and designated with the word Karen, instead of 'Black Lives Matter', let's have 'Women Lives Matter' after all, everyone's lives matter

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Mittens030869 · 18/03/2021 19:17

For me, the one thing that makes the pejorative use of the name ‘Karen’ unacceptable is that it’s a common woman’s name. Quite a few posters have said that their name is Karen and that they hate the ‘Karen’ meme.

I think that should be respected. Yes, that woman in Central Park was a nasty racist and that behaviour should absolutely be called out. But surely that can be done without using a woman’s name that isn’t the name of the woman involved anyway. It probably won’t even impact on her in any way to be called by a name that isn’t hers.

Personally, I’d prefer for her to be named and shamed.

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USVisitor · 18/03/2021 18:41

Hi, I've stumbled across this board several times but refrained from commenting as I'm in the US.

This thread in particular prompted a comment as it's interesting to see how Karen has been interpreted differently. In the US, it ultimately refers to someone who intentionally and knowingly weaponizes their privilege.

It's not just asking to see the manager to discuss poor service in a retail store, for example (which is perfectly reasonable!) but bringing a coupon which they know has already expired, then complaining to a manager to intentionally cause trouble for the worker who refused to take said coupon, wielding their status as a paying customer.

Another big example with which we obviously have a much greater problem is weaponizing whiteness in a law enforcement situation; if a POC doesn't do what they've asked or they don't get their way - perhaps a POC has taken the last parking spot and they want that person to move their vehicle - calling the police and falsifying an altercation, claiming that POC had attacked or assaulted them, knowing that this endangers that POC due to the issues of racism within our law enforcement programs and that the LEO in question will likely side with them due to skin color.

When people in the US use the term Karen, that's typically the type of person they're describing - someone who actively and intentionally weaponizing their position of privilege to cause distress to others. I'm not defending it per se, but it's certainly been interesting to see the meaning expand to white, middle age, middle class women in other areas - that's certainly where it began in the US because the described behavior was most often performed by women who fall into that category, but by NO means is it meant to include all white, middle age, middle class women. I'm one myself.

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Tal45 · 18/03/2021 14:26

I hate the term Karen.

When people say 'Karen' as an insult I remember it being used about a white woman who phoned the police because a black man asked her politely to put her dog on a lead (as it should have been) and she told the police he was going to attack her. To me 'Karen' does not cover that situation by any stretch of the imagination especially when it's also used to describe someone being angry because they got a meal that could give them food poisoning, or for a woman just speaking up when other people don't like what she's saying. I just think it's a shit term all round.

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Ormally · 18/03/2021 13:59

"Imagine, just for a moment, the outrage if a stereotypical name was chosen to caricature any other group. Listeners would, rightly, be horrified at the racist implications."<
Yes, I was thinking exactly that. Sigmund Freud's first name was a bit different from Sigmund, but he altered it because what he was actually called was apparently the stock Jewish stereotype name and would have triggered a bundle of uncomplimentary associations at the time, which now of course have come through taboo and way out of the other side.

"If you’re considered too loud, ambitious, attractive, or bossy there will be a special insult just for you" <
These being things that women have been on the whole encouraged in to an extent for some years, let's say from about mid-teenage, against a backdrop of it being normal prior to about 1960 to suck up your status and forget about going above your station or your biology.

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DaphneBridgerton · 18/03/2021 13:52

@Hopoindown31

It was a comment about the general term of women being called Karen to other them and put them in their place.

Or it is to highlight the massively entitled, unreasonable and often discriminatory behaviour of a significant group of white middle class women in the US? The videos I've seen of "Karen's" have been horrendous. Grown women having tantrums, hurling abuse, lying to police, refusing to comply with simple rules to protect public health, harrassing others going about their lawful business and racially profiling people.

Playing the sexism card here to protect a massively privileged group of people is just reactionary crap. Bad behaviour is bad behaviour regardless of the person's sex.

None of the above is the point. The point is the use of an existing name... it's not fair on those who already have that name. I'd be sick of it by now too. Also, talking about discriminatory behaviour, I notice there isn't a male equivalent... go figure.
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Squills · 18/03/2021 13:36

For me the following article sums up the Karen meme. It was written last year by Joanna Williams, (director of the Freedom, Democracy and Victimhood Project at the think tank, Civitas) and reads as follows...

Are you a Karen? If, like me, you’re a middle-aged, white woman with blonde-bobbed hair, then it is highly likely you are. And if, when things don’t go your way, you loudly demand to speak with the manager, then you are definitely a Karen. But a far more important question, at least according to the BBC, is: "How can white women not be Karens?"

Believe me, no woman wants to be a Karen. Karen is 2020’s go-to insult. It denotes a woman (and it is always a woman!) who is ignorant, bossy, insensitive, vulgar and uncouth.

Karen is more likely to be spotted in a supermarket or cheering on her son’s football team than at a Black Lives Matter demonstration or a Pride rally. She is not only racist and bigoted but, worse still, refuses to acknowledge her privilege.

The BBC is never slow to jump on a passing politically correct bandwagon, especially one that satiates its appetite for a youth audience. The combination of social media, cutting edge memes and woke ideas sets producers’ heads spinning with delight.

At least, nothing else can explain the BBC Sounds podcast No Country For Young Women. In the latest episode, presenter Sadia Azmat interrogates racism. So, naturally, she invites two white women, Charlotte Riley and Amelia Dimoldenberg, to reflect on their privileges.

In a much Tweeted extract that has since been removed, Azmat demands to know: "How can white women not be Karens?"

Rather than recoiling at the gross generalisation and the contemptuous nature of the insult, Riley and Dimoldenberg relish the opportunity to answer.

"Educate yourself! Read some books!" Dimoldenberg orders; with a pause between each word, because clearly Karens are thick as well as racist. Other helpful suggestions include: "be less loud" and "just shut up."

"Yeah, get out of the way basically," laughs Riley, before going on to explain: "I think a lot of the time when women are Karens it is because they are completely unwilling to accept that their whiteness is a privilege and, you know, instead they want to be treated in a special way because they are women."

So now it is clear: all white women are racist but only a superior few have special insight into their sins. The rest of us are vile Karens. Yet the sneering tone and curled-lip disgust of those crying "Karen!" reveals prejudice far more insidious than that demonstrated by any middle-aged mum.

Imagine, just for a moment, the outrage if a stereotypical name was chosen to caricature any other group. Listeners would, rightly, be horrified at the racist implications. But white women are, it seems, fair game. The fact they have no control over their skin colour is irrelevant; it is a mark of original sin and must be atoned for.

Karen name-calling is not just racist; it is also sexist. Women have long suffered from derogatory labels. If you’re considered too loud, ambitious, attractive, or bossy there will be a special insult just for you. Not that long ago, trendy young feminists challenged this linguistic sexism. But now misogyny is mainstream. When it comes to white women, insult away!

Those who finger-point and cry "Karen!" demonstrate, above all else, an ugly, elitist, class prejudice. The women singled-out and instructed to educate themselves are mostly working class or lower middle class. They are mocked for being uppity yet lacking the sophistication and correct ideas of their younger, more woke, better educated, sisters. These condescending overgrown teenagers assume that because they have read a book by Robin DiAngelo or Reni Eddo Lodge, because they can pepper their speech with words like "intersectional" and "microaggression", they are superior to everyone else.

Karens are ridiculed for being loud but no one shouts more loudly than a Karen-finder. Karens are shamed for complaining but no one complains more forcefully than an activist with a Twitter account. Karens are accused of prejudice by those who will draw upon any sexist, racist and elitist stereotype in order to signal their own virtue.

In the name of progress it is now acceptable to insult old people: "Ok Boomer!" White people: "Gammon!" And now women: "Karen!" Elitism, racism and sexism are all back only this time they are woke.

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Dasher789 · 18/03/2021 13:18

im totally confused, why would Caroline Hirons be insulting her own followers?!

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SemperIdem · 18/03/2021 13:08

@aluvss

Agree. A supervisor on my team in a previous role wasn’t white. Got complained about far more than the white blonde one.

White middle aged men and women alike, of a certain type, regularly reacted in that specific way that is now often referred to as “Karen-esque”. I’m white but look younger than I am so that would have been the trigger point there.

I have always found (white, over 50) female customers to be far more prone to releasing utter, unmitigated vitriol on retail staff than any other. I don’t use the term Karen generally speaking, it’s just a bit weak sounding and unfair for women actually called Karen. Cunt serves just as well.

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LadyfromtheBelleEpoque · 18/03/2021 12:46

Also, we are deep in mass media territory now - a lot of it is born out of a response to media stereotypes of people. But the media is one lens to view things through, most people have a different code of behaviour to view things through in real life. I could talk about how this has manufactured so much of our current social tension but honestly, we all have an option to engage or disengage and conversations like this are just free content for platform owners. Monetising discourse, sowing discontent, false premises as truth and exploring vulnerable communities - it’s the rule book, digitalised and brought to life.

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LadyfromtheBelleEpoque · 18/03/2021 12:39

In the situation you describe, amongst friends - I wouldn’t find so scary but it has become weaponised by some and used to empower their aggressiveness.

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LadyfromtheBelleEpoque · 18/03/2021 12:35

Ok I ‘ve just seen your update - it’s been used aggressively against Wien by men on and offline. It’s just another way of attacking women, Beagle - trying to be legitimate by association to a legitimate cause(racism) and a seemingly progressive tool designed to level the playing fields (social media) but it has become more than that when you have people using it alongside images and videos. It also strikes me as a way to single out and categorise women in terms of dynamics that sit with a particular male behaviour.

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BeagleEagle · 18/03/2021 12:35

[quote LadyfromtheBelleEpoque]@BeagleEagle

We have to find ways that will successfully protect women of colour in that scenario. I completely believe you here but tit for tat, bringing things down to the base level never achieves the uplift needed in those situations- and it always backfired on the most vulnerable. However, if all she had in her toolkit was her white privilege and attitude to get her through work then the problem is really about something else.[/quote]
I don't see it as a tit for tat scenario because while i might've used that terminology with close friends and made a meme about it (i actually didn't do that but imagine), I was blowing off steam to deal with my frustration with the situation. What I actually did was left the job after the complaints procedure failed me (sadly). But what I mean when I'm arguing here is that we need to let people have their fun, even though it triggers a bit of sensitivity from us. Call out people who are misusing it just to be misogynistic, but recognise that a meme about a white woman screaming at you over lukewarm chips is probably coming from a genuine place of frustration and is giving that person a bit of a laugh when they need it.

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LadyfromtheBelleEpoque · 18/03/2021 12:32

@BeagleEagle

We have to find ways that will successfully protect women of colour in that scenario. I completely believe you here but tit for tat, bringing things down to the base level never achieves the uplift needed in those situations- and it always backfired on the most vulnerable. However, if all she had in her toolkit was her white privilege and attitude to get her through work then the problem is really about something else.

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BeagleEagle · 18/03/2021 12:30

@Ifyourefeelingsinister

I think using the term Karen is misogynistic and offensive. But even if you disagree with this, isn't it really disrespectful and offensive to anyone called Karen? For those defending this, how would you like it if your name was co opted in this way?

Honestly I think it's sometimes worth people having the language to blow off steam, it's not really a big activist method it's more people joking around to share experiences of shitty behaviour. Like with Roy in the other thread but on a bigger scale. It's definitely been misappropriated which is annoying but I think we need to try to let it go because the message we're sending to people who are using it to blow off steam when they've been properly mistreated is that we can't handle a bit of legitimate criticism. Maybe we should be more specific when we complain about it? Good middle ground?
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LadyfromtheBelleEpoque · 18/03/2021 12:27

We are essentially policing behaviour by speculation and in the grand scheme of things do people really think white, affluent, women will be the losers or will it be another hurdle women of colour will have to navigate? Whatever we put out into the world can be weaponised - surely people have learned this by now?

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BeagleEagle · 18/03/2021 12:27

@Iggi999

See that is how we disagree - I do not see the term being used to describe behaviour that is unacceptable. It will sometimes be used that way, but with its current popularity it can be used about any middle aged woman. Simply being a middle aged woman is not something anyone can or should apologise for!
(Though I do wish to apologise for swearing at you Beagle)

All good, as I admitted, I was being incendiary. I wrote what I would say but I forgot that you can't see my face
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BeagleEagle · 18/03/2021 12:26

I used to work in a residential home and the manager used to call me into her office and scream at me for things such as accidentally hanging up the phone instead of putting her on hold, accidentally interrupting her, following procedures correctly in a way that was inconvenient for her etc etc. She used to say she would NEVER hire a man to work for her, she used to loudly condescend new staff, especially younger members of staff, she was particularly horrendous towards Asian and Black members of staff. She also had that 'girlboss' energy, where she thought she was doing the feminist cause a big favour by being a manager, even though she was a dreadful one. She even painted the walls of the office in the suffragetter colours. This behaviour is unique to women - men can be shitty bosses but in a different way. She was using her white womanhood and her more advanced age to simultaneously oppress and take on the role of someone who is fighting oppression. She was certainly a Karen.

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Iggi999 · 18/03/2021 12:24

See that is how we disagree - I do not see the term being used to describe behaviour that is unacceptable. It will sometimes be used that way, but with its current popularity it can be used about any middle aged woman. Simply being a middle aged woman is not something anyone can or should apologise for!
(Though I do wish to apologise for swearing at you Beagle)

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