Sick of being called Karen

[frog22]

Listening to Radio 4 and Caroline Hirons is on and she has already used the term Karen to refer to her followers. I'm just sick of it. It's as bad as calling a woman the B word or C word!

Why would she do it? Why do women do it to other women?

I find it very funny that the same people who are offended by the term “Karen” will then turn around and complain about the end of free speech and “cancel culture” when criticised in the same way they criticise those who call them “Karen”.

“Karen” has been co-opted by incels and other misogynists but that doesn’t mean POC and other disenfranchised groups should stop using it.

How is it worse than "white van man "?

Iirc Labour made a point of courting White Van Man - in the days when they actually courted the electorate . It started out as somewhat pejorative but sensible people realised that usually working class men who drive for a living are also worth listening to.

@HeLa1

I find it very funny that the same people who are offended by the term “Karen” will then turn around and complain about the end of free speech and “cancel culture” when criticised in the same way they criticise those who call them “Karen”.

One hell of an assumption! Two totally different debates. You want to use it, no one is stopping you, it hasn’t been cancelled but don’t pretend it isn’t misogynistic. There is a good argument that using it to discuss racism trivialises the issue because it was used for years to mock soccer moms and a certain lifestyle and hairstyle in the US. Even now, it seems to have moved on to ‘Covid Karen’! Some white men use it to mock older women and now just women in general who they disagree with. In the U.K. it is more of a working class woman’s name - think of ‘Karen Taylor’ in Eastenders. The character is a working class and middle aged, so the writers chose a name that reflects that. Names are often important signifiers and writers are well aware of this when creating credible characters.

“alwaystired234
There are derogatory names for pretty much every race, age and class of people. IMO being so outraged all the time about it propagates it further”

really??? Just let people be bigots??

So if you're sick of being called Karen when it isn't your actual name... what did you do to BE a Karen?!

theres always misogynists. i shall call them lily's.
the people who say cancel culture doesnt exist, i shall call them kates.
brexiteers, i will call helen's and trump fans, i will call poppys. the sort of people who post 'all lives matter' i will call eleanors.

its really important to me to give girl's names to people who do stupid things. doesnt matter if its mostly men, its really important to call out the women. the women must be made to look stupid.

I haven't ever been called 'Karen' myself; I didn't even know it was a thing until I saw it on a Mumsnet thread a couple of months ago. I'm just standing up for women whose actual name is Karen. Plus, I can see it's become just another stick to beat middle aged women with.

There isn't an equivalent for men, despite all the names suggested. To me, that says it all.

@amijustparanoidorjuststoned

So if you're sick of being called Karen when it isn't your actual name... what did you do to BE a Karen?!

Was female and listening to Radio 4.

Renaggie There is an actual effort to cancel “Karen” on social media sites like twitter, Reddit and even Mumsnet with some people likening “Karen” to the n-word for white women which I find to be both amusing and insulting.

Of course, like I said in my previous post, there is some misogyny in uses of Karen with incels co-opting the term. And I believe there is a discussion to be had about holding racist white men to the same standards as racist white women.

I use the term “Karen” to describe typically white women who have a sense of entitlement due to their race. Some Working class white people, even more so in the UK (in my experience) , do demand special treatment because of their race and dismiss BAME people’s racist experiences because they have experienced classism and lack “privilege”.

So “Karen” is often a useful term along with “Becky”, “darren” , “Patty” and many others to describe low level micro aggressions that would be dismissed by majority of the white public because racism is only the KKK in their opinion.

I use the term “Karen” to describe typically white women who have a sense of entitlement due to their race. Some Working class white people, even more so in the UK (in my experience) , do demand special treatment because of their race and dismiss BAME people’s racist experiences because they have experienced classism and lack “privilege”.

So you like to generalise?

I use the term “Karen” to describe typically white women who have a sense of entitlement due to their race.

Why do we need a name to describe that? What is wrong with just saying ‘entitled’ as a descriptor?

The problem is that might be how you use the term, but many others are using ‘Karen’ to just describe a woman with an opinion.

Using correct adjectives to describe behaviours is clear to everyone what you mean. Calling an overused meme-names is ambiguous and bolsters those who are using it as a general shut down towards women.

Lol it is no where near being called a b or c

Karen means a complainer, a women who cries about it raining, an annoying Karen who reports everything.

I don't know why Americans choose Karen though, the only Karen I know is columbian.

But no one is suggesting on this thread that there are white women who behave like that. They should be called out on their behaviour and outed as racists. But how does using the name 'Karen' help your cause? It's also very unfair on women who actually have that name, who may well be nothing like that.

That was meant to say that 'no one is suggesting that there aren't white women who behave like that.' Sorry.

I'm in Scotland, swearing is like a comma to us.

I think 'Karen' is more offensive than 'cunt'.

It is unfair if someone has the name, I agree on that.

I have to say whenever I engage on Twitter anyone who does not agree with what I am saying usually adds a Karen in the response. And often a TERF as well. I suppose men get Boomer maybe?

I use the term “Karen” to describe typically white women who have a sense of entitlement due to their race

So If I, being white, complain about something I'm not happy about, even though I might be right, then according to you I'm doing that because I'm white and entitled and you that that why? How do you know I'm doing that because of my race, I might just be pissed off with having to wait 40 minutes at the hairdressers for example. Because you think that a black woman won't complain in a similar situation?

I use the term “Karen” to describe typically white women who have a sense of entitlement due to their race. Some Working class white people, even more so in the UK (in my experience) , do demand special treatment because of their race and dismiss BAME people’s racist experiences because they have experienced classism and lack “privilege”.

Hmm so it's a class thing then. As it's not acceptable to poke fun at someone because they are working class. So the modern twist is these revolting posh snearing young women (with their perceived superior class and education) getting round this by coining the phrase Karen and directing it at middle aged working class women instead. I get it...

its a useful term for inarticulate thick people to generalise about working class women.

its a useful term for inarticulate thick people to generalise about working class women.

Yep.

@HeLa1

Renaggie There is an actual effort to cancel “Karen” on social media sites like twitter, Reddit and even Mumsnet with some people likening “Karen” to the n-word for white women which I find to be both amusing and insulting.

Of course, like I said in my previous post, there is some misogyny in uses of Karen with incels co-opting the term. And I believe there is a discussion to be had about holding racist white men to the same standards as racist white women.

I use the term “Karen” to describe typically white women who have a sense of entitlement due to their race. Some Working class white people, even more so in the UK (in my experience) , do demand special treatment because of their race and dismiss BAME people’s racist experiences because they have experienced classism and lack “privilege”.

So “Karen” is often a useful term along with “Becky”, “darren” , “Patty” and many others to describe low level micro aggressions that would be dismissed by majority of the white public because racism is only the KKK in their opinion.

Thanks for your honest response about your use of the given name ‘Karen’ and some acknowledgment that it is to some extent misogynistic- some people completely refuse to see it despite it being all over the internet. I agree that it does shine light on racist behaviour but its traction and use also shines a light on ingrained misogynistic attitudes in society. By giving this sort of behaviour a specific female name, too many people who should be reflecting on their own behaviour and the existence of structural racism, can opt out or deny that it has anything to do with them. Men have been given a free pass in all of this and that is my biggest concern. As I have said before, yes white women can participate in structural racism but white men were the architects and by not calling them to account, nothing will really change. If they are called a ‘Karen’ -which rarely ever happens from what I can see- the insult comes from being called by a female name not about their behaviour. The issue of class is again complex but Karen, in this country at least, isn’t associated with being a particularly middle class name and I would argue is more of a working class name, so again, more opting out by the very people who I believe need to be reflecting on micro-aggressions the most. In my experience, working class people can of course be reluctant to admit the existence of white privilege because of class oppression (and why I believe a fairer, less unequal society is desperately needed because it can address more than one inequality) but the middle classes have no excuse and in my experience express exactly the same levels of racial prejudice but are less likely to express it openly or only with others who are likely to hold the same views so they are never challenged. In the meantime, in the cross fire are women who are actually called Karen. I have seen people say it isn’t about women who are called Karen but seeing your name used in this way (and no, I don’t think it is racist either) is still unfair and has real life consequences. Some women in the US have been advised to change their names on LinkedIn because the negative associations with the name could lose them job/ promotion opportunities. Some have taken their names off of social media sites or use initials or second names because they get mocked for their given name. What also detracts from an anti racist message is that people have genuine sympathy for those women called Karen who they do not associate with the behaviour. I read one tweet where a young woman said it was hard for her seeing how the name was being used now as her lovely mother was called Karen and she died when she was a teenager. I can imagine that there are many more like her.
In addition, not all people called Karen are white and again it is unfair to have their name so closely associated with a race that they are not. The ‘Karen’ are also a persecuted ethnic minority in Myanmar, so also find the choice of name to call out racism perplexing. The next problem with it is that stereotypes get old quickly or morph - the Karen meme is already associated with lots of different things and this can’t be a moment that is just lost! We need to use terms that have more power and resonance and say exactly what the problem is. I do like the idea of now reclaiming the Karen meme and changing it into something more positive - complaining about the problem of structural racism rather than being the problem.
Sorry, this has turned into a bit of essay. I hope that you can appreciate where I am coming from ...

Renaggie, thank you for such a thoughtful response. I do feel sympathy for people called “Karen” who are the furthest thing from a “Karen”. I can relate as I was made fun of for my name growing up and I’ve also read many stories of POC called “Karen” who now have to contend with their name being a symbol of racism which is no doubt extremely confusing.

To me “Karen” still offers a useful description of certain behaviours typical in a racist society that glorifies mediocre people due to their whiteness. And I vehemently believe it should only be used to describe the insidious racism even people without much power (white women) contribute to and not any woman being mean to you. I agree with you on “Karen” becoming a term to highlight the structural racism that encompasses the lives of any black and brown person.