Freebirth. Fallen out with my friend. *title edited by MNHQ*

[whateveryouneed]

Friend is 3 months pregnant. We've been friends for around 5 years. Saw her today for the first time in 8 or so weeks. She was asking me about my pregnancy and son's birth. I was honest with her and told her how it went (she already knew a fair bit but not finer details). She said it scared her a bit hearing about my son being born blue and floppy, completely flatlined. He had to be intubated and resuscitated (he's 100% fine and healthy now).

The reason it scared her is because she's planning a freebirth. She wants to give birth in her bathtub at home (rural, about 18 miles from the nearest town, further from nearest hospital). She wants no medical assistance. Just her and her husband.

I told her (fairly firmly) that I think she needs to rethink that idea and that it could be really dangerous. She thinks that because she's not high risk (at the moment), that the chances of something going wrong are minimal. She thinks that if baby is head down that she will be fine.

AIBU to be really scared for her if she goes through with this? She's just told me she can't be friends with me throughout her pregnancy if I can't support her choice.

Not sure what to say or think...

Turns out the midwife/consultant makes a silly mistake (not even necessarily serious professional negligence) leading to disastrous consequences

Give us an example of a silly mistake a midwife could make in a home setting that could have disastrous consequences.

Btw - for me the choice is a homebirth as it seems like a good compromise overall :) but others may make a different assessment.

Laurie - part of a homebirth is accepting that the midwife may insist you go to hospital because they feel it is appropriate - you don't have full dominion over things even with a homebirth.

Yes I know of a midwife (the same bitch midwife who made my birth traumatic) who attended a home birth and insisted the woman transfer to hospital for no good reason. Theoretically if she's stayed at home for the birth it could all have been fine and if the transfer into hospital led to interventions and complications it would have been a worse outcome. I can't remember what actually happened in that case... I do know the woman made a complaint about being bullied into an unnecessary transfer. I think it is rare though. This midwife is particularly bad and shouldn't be doing the job!

She's mad. Why take a risk, especially knowing about your terrifying experience. Hopefully her midwife will talk her out of it.

part of a homebirth is accepting that the midwife may insist you go to hospital because they feel it is appropriate

Presumably because they feel it is required.

I’m sure they occasionally make the wrong call, that’s just human nature.

However I can’t understand the mentality of someone who, because of that, ejects them from the process entirely, running many additional risks.

If the tiny possibility of going to hospital unnecessarily is so problematic, counselling strikes me as a much more sensible response than opting to free birth.

And anyway, a good friend doesn't always tell us things we want to hear. I think she'll realise that and thank you pretty soon.

There is a way to support and engage her without being hypocritical or accepting freebirthing is any way a good idea.
That would be to tell her that you don't like it, but understand it's her choice. BUT you are very concerned about her and the baby's safety and would like to help her work out how to have the safest birth possible.
Then you would help her research the risks and possible ways to mitigate them.

This would be tricky, because she would probably realise that you hoped to convert her to medical support, and it would also require a great deal of emotional work on your part, because not only are you volunteering to help research, you are effectively promising not to bring your own (much more sensible) beliefs into the conversation.
Given your previous traumatic experience, that's probably more than you should take on, but it's worth thinking about as a perspective on how to approach it.

As someone who had pre eclampsia free birth isn't for me.

A friend had her ( not pfb) at home while her and dh delivered alone. However the midwife was sat in the living room drinking tea in case it all went TU.

She examined herself for dilation, knew when to push, dh cut the cord, helped the placenta out etc.

But that expert was in the next room. After baby was born midwife did the baby check and buggered off. But it wasnt a first born. After my second I'm certain I could birth totally alone too. However I wouldnt even gave a home birth and I have always had two midwives present and with my last two me and dh was never left alone in the room. Blood pressure is just one silent killer.

People do die in the UK during birth. I don't think people know how often it happens

With a home birth you are still free to go against the decision of your midwife. For my first home birth I had two midwives one of whom was adament I transferred for an induction becuase in her opinion things were progressing too slow. The second midwive however supported my decision to stay at home longer as she agreed with me there was no risk in delaying transfer. In the end I had a sucessful, albeit lenghty home birth. I would not have liked to have made this decision on my own, both midwives were able to go through with me the risks of both options so I could make an informed decision.

Legoandloldolls - was that friend in the UK or abroad? I don't think having a non-intervening midwife at home is an option here. Home births (to my understanding) involve 2, fairly involved, midwives. This set up sounds pretty cool to be honest!
What we need is to respect the woman's choice as much as possible so that they feel free to engage fully with the medical help available. That to me is ideal.

Or was the midwife an independent midwife?

Yes I know of a midwife (the same bitch midwife who made my birth traumatic) who attended a home birth and insisted the woman transfer to hospital for no good reason. Theoretically if she's stayed at home for the birth it could all have been fine and if the transfer into hospital led to interventions and complications it would have been a worse outcome. I can't remember what actually happened in that case...

I love stories like this. I see them all the time on MN. The poster is SO sure the transfer was for 'no good reason'.. but can't actually remember why or what happened.

I'm sure if we asked the midwife, she or he would have a very different take on things.

You can consent or not consent to care at any point. Your MW has no right to do anything you don’t consent to. I have never had an internal during labour. My Mws mostly weren’t in the same room. I had the care I wanted in response to the labour I experienced. it wasn’t an issue and the MWs were very much about allowing a straightforward normal labour to progress. Women’s consent is a huge issue around labour - very often the home birth Mws are very aware of its importance, ime anyway.

The labour I had no monitoring, no internal, no MW for labour was my hospital birth where staff told me I wasn’t in labour and should go home. They put me in some random space in the end because I refused to go - my partner stayed and could t go to get a MW as there were non around when he stuck his head out and no way of summoning one so he stayed and caught the baby!

Each to their own, but the thought of my baby dying in labour and it being down to my own actions terrifies me. I'd never be able to live with the guilt.

Wolfgirrl
Given the way that midwife treated me when I was in labour, I have absolutely zero interest in what she has to say about it.
Since the birth I've discovered that she is absolutely notorious and I suspect the only reason she's doing the job is that most women who've just given birth are in no fit state to make a formal complaint, they're focused on physical and emotional recovery, and of course looking after their newborn.
You can think what you like, though, you can think you know best because I can't remember the details of that particular women's birth, but I certainly know what happened when I gave birth, and that's enough for me.
It's another case of women not being listened to, I guess - the midwife must always know best

@NameChange30 seeing as you are bringing your own story in as 'proof' this midwife must have been wrong in another case, do you mind outlining what happened?

Yes I do mind.
This is a mumsnet thread, I don't need to provide "proof", I'm certainly not sharing my story for you to pick apart.
I've done some work on putting the trauma behind me so I can feel positive about my next birth.

Your choice obviously, but you cant expect us to accept what you say as gospel if you wont outline the facts.

I don't expect you to accept what I say as gospel, I've been on mumsnet long enough to know that We're all just expressing opinions and there are plenty of people who disagree with me and who I disagree with! Especially on AIBU! (I often regret getting sucked into threads on here!)

I've read most but not all of this thread so apologies if I'm repeating what's already been said, but I think that - assuming he isn't the controlling force behind this, a possibility some have rightly raised - it's actually quite an awful thing to do to the DP. Expecting him to spot that something is wrong with no training or knowledge is giving him an impossible task and a huge burden if things don't go to plan and his partner or baby suffer or even die as a result. It's not a position I would ever put someone I loved in. The one plus is that I suspect that they both have such a rose-tinted idea of labour that in practice they are likely to decide very early on that something must be wrong - why isn't this a beautiful and mystical experience?! - and seek help. There is the other possibility though, that he is so primed that they must do it this way that he refuses to contemplate getting help no matter what, which is the really worrying possibility.

If the tiny possibility of going to hospital unnecessarily is so problematic, counselling strikes me as a much more sensible response than opting to free birth
I agree with you, especially when that person is going to disengage with health care from a certain point in pregnancy.

What I don't understand is that this friend is so concerned about running away from health care, but doing so means she's going to miss monitoring and potential treatments that could make a simpler labour, either at home or in hospital.

I don't understand why anyone would choose to stick their head in the sand, not engage with medical professionals, think their googling is comparable to professional training, and do their own thing unless they have deeper issues that need resolving (or they really are clinging to the desire for an amazing birth story to share with like minded friends).

In the event of an emergency will this friend be turning the ambulance away? I could see a situation where baby and/or mum are in danger, the ambulance can only get there when one is available, they can only get to them so quickly and they can only get back to the hospital so quickly. Is the friend seriously saying they're happy to risk their child's life?

She's just told me she can't be friends with me throughout her pregnancy if I can't support her choice.
I would just text 'I understand and hope your pregnancy goes well'. Then move on and don't give ant headspace to this as you cannot control what your STBXfriend does.

I considered a free birth this time around as I live a very long drive from the hospital and my trust have cancelled homebirths due to covid. All my labours have been quicker than the drive to the hospital, the last one was around half an hour from first contraction to baby coming out with only one push. I have hired an IM instead but if I couldn't have afford it I think I would of had to freebirth as I wouldn't have risked the ride to the hospital. Would probably take a good 15 to 20 minutes for someone to get here to watch all the other children to be honest before even setting off. I don't know your friends circumstances obviously, but not everyone that considers a freebirth is some crazy hippy that is anti the NHS.