Freebirth. Fallen out with my friend. *title edited by MNHQ*

[whateveryouneed]

Friend is 3 months pregnant. We've been friends for around 5 years. Saw her today for the first time in 8 or so weeks. She was asking me about my pregnancy and son's birth. I was honest with her and told her how it went (she already knew a fair bit but not finer details). She said it scared her a bit hearing about my son being born blue and floppy, completely flatlined. He had to be intubated and resuscitated (he's 100% fine and healthy now).

The reason it scared her is because she's planning a freebirth. She wants to give birth in her bathtub at home (rural, about 18 miles from the nearest town, further from nearest hospital). She wants no medical assistance. Just her and her husband.

I told her (fairly firmly) that I think she needs to rethink that idea and that it could be really dangerous. She thinks that because she's not high risk (at the moment), that the chances of something going wrong are minimal. She thinks that if baby is head down that she will be fine.

AIBU to be really scared for her if she goes through with this? She's just told me she can't be friends with me throughout her pregnancy if I can't support her choice.

Not sure what to say or think...

There is no legal requirement for her to inform anyone she is pregnant. It is her right to refuse antenatal support including midwifery appointments and scans. I appreciate this is a minority choice but it is her choice alone.

PurBal

You are right, no legal requirement, but social services may take a keen interest.
Any woman who is selfish enough to free birth is also likely to disregard the needs of an infant. SS would be keeping an eye on things.

@MrsNoah2020 - do we actually have data on unassisted births vs assisted births? What you're suggesting seems very different data ie mortality in cases where antenatal and perinatal care is non existent. This is different altogether.
I'd be interested to see data of assisted births vs non assisted births (ie with a medical professional) but with other factors being equal in terms of antenatal care etc.

@speakout - actually they wouldn't. It is pretty clear from the guidance that it is a woman's right and no referral to SS should be made on that basis.

[quote oblada]@MrsNoah2020 - do we actually have data on unassisted births vs assisted births? What you're suggesting seems very different data ie mortality in cases where antenatal and perinatal care is non existent. This is different altogether.
I'd be interested to see data of assisted births vs non assisted births (ie with a medical professional) but with other factors being equal in terms of antenatal care etc.[/quote]
You're not going to get reliable data on freebirthing outcomes in developed countries because the numbers are tiny and because intended place of delivery will rarely be documented, which messes up all the figures - if you only look at the outcomes for people who actually did deliver by free birth, you will miss all those with complications who had the sense to call an ambulance. Also, where complications have occurred, mothers are likely to conceal the fact that they were attempting freebirthing, and pretend that they went into labour at home unexpectedly. The only way to get reliable data would be to get a large cohort of pregnant women who intend to free birth and follow them up to see what happens, which only a lunatic someone with a poor grasp of medial ethics would do, because of the risks involved.

Don't dismiss the Afghanistan data though. As I outlined above, simply introducing more midwives without changing anything reduced their maternal mortality rate by 80%. That is a very clear illustration of the difference between assisted and unassisted delivery.

You seem reluctant to accept this, so I will turn the question round. Can you show me any data that freebirthing is safe?

without changing anything else

This thread has been an eye-opener. I thought it was obvious that women and babies are at high risk during birth and that skilled midwives and obstetricians are a godsend. Clearly not.

Am I right in thinking that homo sapiens females have a much harder time of it in birth than most other animals because walking on two legs has complicated matters?

oblada

SS will respect the rights of the mother, but the rights of the child is another matter.

"You seem reluctant to accept this."
I'm not reluctant at all, just curious and wondering if the data you were very specifically referring to were actually relevant/accurate. If you quote data it needs to be done properly. I agree it is difficult to get accurate data on this.

Speakout - a mother wouldn't be referred to SS for freebirthing. So it wouldnt even be a question I don't think.

Gaspode - good point. The only thing I've heard on that is that human babies are born more 'immature' because of the pelvis size/walking thing, hence some of the theory around breastfeeding and 4th trimester.

We aren't the only species to give birth to immature young. Polar bears cubs are tiny when born, baby kangaroos are also tiny and very immature.

I'm sure there must be others who have tiny immature young.

Pandas.

This is a fascinating article on various factors that make childbirth complex and difficult in human females. www.bbc.com/earth/story/20161221-the-real-reasons-why-childbirth-is-so-painful-and-dangerous Even more complicated than I thought!

But none of that is really relevant to this lady.

She's either deluded believing the whole Earth Mother nonsense, the last person I came across with that outlook, relax and my body can do it, lost the baby.

Or she is under pressure from an abusive partner.

Either way she and baby are potentially at risk.