Freebirth. Fallen out with my friend. *title edited by MNHQ*

[whateveryouneed]

Friend is 3 months pregnant. We've been friends for around 5 years. Saw her today for the first time in 8 or so weeks. She was asking me about my pregnancy and son's birth. I was honest with her and told her how it went (she already knew a fair bit but not finer details). She said it scared her a bit hearing about my son being born blue and floppy, completely flatlined. He had to be intubated and resuscitated (he's 100% fine and healthy now).

The reason it scared her is because she's planning a freebirth. She wants to give birth in her bathtub at home (rural, about 18 miles from the nearest town, further from nearest hospital). She wants no medical assistance. Just her and her husband.

I told her (fairly firmly) that I think she needs to rethink that idea and that it could be really dangerous. She thinks that because she's not high risk (at the moment), that the chances of something going wrong are minimal. She thinks that if baby is head down that she will be fine.

AIBU to be really scared for her if she goes through with this? She's just told me she can't be friends with me throughout her pregnancy if I can't support her choice.

Not sure what to say or think...

@MrsNoah2020 - curious to know where your data comes from?

I haven't found stats re unassisted vs assisted births and it would be interesting to see stats focusing on this only (ie not about removing the full antenatal and postnatal care but merely about assisted vs unassisted births).

@NameChange30 - wrt that article on birth violence: covid-19 isn't the risk factor.
Misogyny is always the risk factor. Covid is the occasion, not the underlying cause.

True. But isn't it terrifying how an event like the covid-19 pandemic has made the misogyny even more "acceptable".

Misogyny is always acceptable, maybe moreso in some places than others, but it's a hydra that will take a lot of killing off.

After all, China is only a decade or so on (maybe more) from their 'one family, one child' policy that saw millions of forced abortions.

Why is this about misogyny?

I can't possibly think why 🤔🙄

Why do you need to support it or not support it? It's not your choice.

I think she's nuts for the record. But wouldn't feel the need to tell her so...

Perinatal mortality is from WHO.

Unassisted birth data estimated from WHO maternal mortality figures, fertility rates, plus national figures on the % of unattended deliveries. It also correlates with historical estimates from birth and death registers. It can only be an estimate because anywhere where high percentages of women give birth without assistance is inevitably somewhere where precise records are not kept of exactly who has been attended by a midwife.

Afghanistan is a good contemporary example because it did have a very high percentage of unattended deliveries and a correspondingly high death rate, but has now managed to improve access to midwives considerably, with a measurable improvement in mortality. Until about 10 years ago, an individual women's lifetime risk of dying in pregnancy in Afghanistan (which had the highest % of unassisted deliveries at the time). was about 1 in 11, so almost 1 in 10 of the entire female population died as a result of pregnancy - staggeringly high. And that was the average for the whole population, including women did have midwives, so will have brought the average down - the death rate for the group with unassisted deliveries will have been even greater.

Now clearly there are factors in Afghanistan like child marriage and malnutrition that wouldn't apply in the UK. However, interestingly, improving access to midwives has reduced the death rate by about 80%, even though other factors like child marriage and poor maternal health persist.

@MrsNoah2020

Omg, that's appalling. It breaks my heart those women wouldve given their right arm for good medical care, yet some idiots in this country care more about showing off to their NCT group than their baby's life.

Like I said before, I just don't believe a fear of hospitals makes delivering a baby yourself at home with zero medical assistance more appealing.

I really think most of these women are just trying to justify what they know is a mental choice.

It sounds like a lovely idea, but I had two very different births. The second time around it went well (both kids fine) and was a lovely experience in a birthing centre -dimmed lights, pool, hypnobirthing, that sort of thing. I felt really relaxed, but knowing help wasn't far away made it that way and I'm not far from the hospital at all either. I think the maintain should be a safe birth above everything else.

I think it's especially risky with your first baby too and she won't know how she will deal with the pain.

Oh dear I am going to get shouted at by thread perfects now - didn't realise this one was 30 pages long already

People saying "I/my baby would be dead if I'd done this" can rarely conclude that for sure, as things may have gone differently if they hadn't been in hospital in the first place.

Oh FFS. I had placenta accreta. How would you handle that on your own in a blow up tub?

God this conversation makes me so angry !

Go back to the 1850's with NO medical assistance. NO penicillin. No NHS (for the lucky ones in the UK) ...

HOW MANY WOMEN DIED IN 'FREE BIRTH' ???

Walk round the grave yards while wobbling your brains.. (if you have one)

Human kind has advanced . but if you are happy to crack on with a pointless, unnecessary ' theory' then go for it..

...and be like my mother and live with the loss and regret EVERY day of your life for 61 years. (So far) ... and she didn't choose it. She chose a home birth with village midwife who couldn't get to her because she was with another mother...

The friend doesn't even want a midwife.

This isn't really even a discussion. It's total lunacy.

People saying "I/my baby would be dead if I'd done this" can rarely conclude that for sure, as things may have gone differently if they hadn't been in hospital in the first place.

We had an unexpected breech birth, a prolapse cord and a hemorrhage. I'm pretty sure DH couldn't have managed that by himself even if we both could have fitted in the bath tub.
It really is dangerous nonsense.

Bloody hell, @endlessginandtonic -remind me to be on annual leave the next time you're in labour

(Sounds horrific - hope everyone was ok?)

Go back to the 1850's with NO medical assistance.

But that’s not even true. Surely the norm then was having an experienced woman attend the birth?

That’s what I don’t get about all this. It’s not even back to some rose tinted view of how things used to be.

People saying "I/my baby would be dead if I'd done this" can rarely conclude that for sure, as things may have gone differently if they hadn't been in hospital in the first place.

Ok maybe things would have been different. Maybe I'd never have conceived without help.
I'll never forget lying on the bed, blood pouring from me, starring at a dot on the ceiling, the dot was going blurry, what would my chances have been without the team around me?

@Nartl0ngNow

In absolute awe of your friend! If she has a positive outset and surrounded by people that trust her body can birth light all the thousands of generations before us then she has every chance of having the outcome she wants. I'm sorry you had such a traumatic birth and it will always influence your decisions but your friend has the right to birth the way she chooses

I did hypnobirthing and felt so empowered to have a water birth no pain relief - I was so excited.

What actually happened was that my baby's heart rate dropped to 10 bpm in labour and I ended up with a crash section so I wasn't even awake for the birth. My husband wasn't allowed in and he had no idea if the baby would survive. It was incredibly traumatic for him and I had flashbacks for months afterwards. A positive attitude can't overcome physiology unfortunately.

Many women and babies died before proper medical care was available, the fact that it's a relatively safe thing to give birth these days makes many of us forget just how dangerous it is.

@MrsNoah2020 there was only the one time!

It wasn't fun but critically everyone lived and was healthy long term, thanks for asking.

It is a trauma DH and I will never forget but others have much worse ones.
It does mean I have no patience for free birth.

In absolute awe of your friend! If she has a positive outset and surrounded by people that trust her body can birth light all the thousands of generations before us then she has every chance of having the outcome she wants.
I'm sorry you had such a traumatic birth and it will always influence your decisions but your friend has the right to birth the way she chooses
i‘ll tell that my friend who’s uterus ruptured after a perfect low risk pregnancy. it was touch and go even in hospital. She and her baby would have been dead even in a conventional homebirth. same for my oldest and me (well, I might have made it knowing I killed my son)

@Newdaynewname1

*In absolute awe of your friend! If she has a positive outset and surrounded by people that trust her body can birth light all the thousands of generations before us then she has every chance of having the outcome she wants. I'm sorry you had such a traumatic birth and it will always influence your decisions but your friend has the right to birth the way she chooses* i‘ll tell that my friend who’s uterus ruptured after a perfect low risk pregnancy. it was touch and go even in hospital. She and her baby would have been dead even in a conventional homebirth. same for my oldest and me (well, I might have made it knowing I killed my son)

Really sorry to hear your friend's experience, glad she was ok but must have been very scarey. Can I ask was it a VBAC? These are always advised to be in hospital becuase of the higher risk of uterine rupture.

@weepingwillow22 no, second child, picture book pregnancy, positive attitude etc. Birth can get dangerous quickly. I couldn’t be friends with somebody advocating free birth anymore than with somebody advocating teaching kids how to swim by throwing them in the pool and see if they make it. Or letting them cycle on the motorway.

Leave her be. As it becomes more of a reality she might change her mind and the last thing she needs is you telling her ‘I told you so’.
You’re not the one who has the responsibility to tell her the risks. She’ll get information from her midwife and once the reality kicks in she might feel differently.
Back off and don’t project your worries about birth on her.

It's her choice.