Freebirth. Fallen out with my friend. *title edited by MNHQ*

[whateveryouneed]

Friend is 3 months pregnant. We've been friends for around 5 years. Saw her today for the first time in 8 or so weeks. She was asking me about my pregnancy and son's birth. I was honest with her and told her how it went (she already knew a fair bit but not finer details). She said it scared her a bit hearing about my son being born blue and floppy, completely flatlined. He had to be intubated and resuscitated (he's 100% fine and healthy now).

The reason it scared her is because she's planning a freebirth. She wants to give birth in her bathtub at home (rural, about 18 miles from the nearest town, further from nearest hospital). She wants no medical assistance. Just her and her husband.

I told her (fairly firmly) that I think she needs to rethink that idea and that it could be really dangerous. She thinks that because she's not high risk (at the moment), that the chances of something going wrong are minimal. She thinks that if baby is head down that she will be fine.

AIBU to be really scared for her if she goes through with this? She's just told me she can't be friends with me throughout her pregnancy if I can't support her choice.

Not sure what to say or think...

@oblada otherwise they are reckless? They can do all the 'research' in the world and not have 1% of the practical experience a midwife or consultant has. It doesnt matter what the reasons are for it, or how well prepared they are, it is madness. And incredibly selfish.

Of course things can go wrong!! But sometimes things go wrong because of medical interventions. That's my point. And sometimes it goes wrong because of a lack of medical intervention. Not the same as saying the medical profession is useless. I'm sure over a high number of women the medical intervention/presence overall works best. But for a single individual mother you just cannot simply say as a blanket statement that having a "medical" birth is definitely better/safer.

Again I'm not saying I'd go for it but I recognise it is a woman's right to be unassisted and if researched properly it is a legitimate choice that she makes for herself and her baby

Medical professionals are not perfect and do not make the right calls all the time.

No one said they did.

But as a non trained person actually giving birth at the time you’re very unlikely to make the right call and totally unable to execute it even if you could.

Before I had my first I was terrified of going into hospital. I felt that I would feel helpless and out of control, treated like a slab of meat, etc. I thought my anxiety about hospital would interfere with my ability to handle labour.

I signed up with the home birth team and booked a pool.

I was right about my own way of doing things, and was happy focussing in my breathing, moving around the house, staying upright, and got an hour into pushing with no pain relief at all, before even I knew we needed assistance (baby OP). And we transferred. It was fine.

Haranguing her with near Death Stars won’t work. You will make her feel even more that birth is a medicalised thing ‘done’ to her rather than a natural process that her body does. You and a million MNers might argue that point, but it won’t help.

Is there a home birth midwife team in your area that will help her arrange a home birth in a pool? (a bath really won’t be big enough). Maybe suggest she swaps to that team now, to get the benefit of their experience.

My guess is that her decision is based in fear. As mine was. Disapproval and judging won’t help.

Ultimately whether you agree or disagree, it is, in the UK at least, a woman's right to opt for a free birth.

Stats not stars

@oblada

Of course things can go wrong!! But sometimes things go wrong because of medical interventions. That's my point. And sometimes it goes wrong because of a lack of medical intervention. Not the same as saying the medical profession is useless. I'm sure over a high number of women the medical intervention/presence overall works best. But for a single individual mother you just cannot simply say as a blanket statement that having a "medical" birth is definitely better/safer.

Again I'm not saying I'd go for it but I recognise it is a woman's right to be unassisted and if researched properly it is a legitimate choice that she makes for herself and her baby

I agree that sometimes things go wrong becusse of medical internentions but interventions are also necessary to save lives.

So the issue is over who should make the call on whether interventions are necessary, a mother with limited scientific knowledge of the birthing process or a skilled professional? I would say the latter, ideally in combination with the mother but in certain circumstances overruling the mother when lives are at risk. I think a midwife is ideally positioned to make this call and I say this as someone who has had 2 home births attended by midwives.

She's only twelve weeks at the moment, once she has done more research and can feel baby kicking and moving maybe she'll start to focus more on her responsibilities as a mother to ensure appropriate medical assistance for her child, and less on her right to have the hippy river birth of her fantasies.
I had a horrible hospital birth and a dream home birth with very little midwife interference so I fully understand the urge to demedicalise the process, but I would never in a million years risk free birthing. Because I wouldn't be able to live with the consequences if it went wrong, knowing that I chose the least safe option

There's a balance to be found between listening to a woman and respecting/accommodating her preferences for what happens to her body when she's giving birth on the one hand, and letting skilled and experienced professionals use their skills to keep her and the baby safe through this highly risky time, minimising harm to both mother and baby along the way, on the other hand.

@LaurieMarlow scans aren't all that. I know a handful of women who chose not to have scans. The reasons ranged from: their previous birth scans put their EDD right out and meant lots of pushing for interventions from medical teams. Others chose not to know if the child they were carrying had any health conditions.
Every person is different and it's a choice to get a scan. Looking back, I feel I shouldn't have got a scan because I became fixated on the EDD and what I thought I could see in the image. Your insides are covered for a reason.

Weepingwillow - if you look at high numbers/stats etc then yes probably. If you look at an individual case - not necessarily. A midwife may make the wrong call with disastrous consequences.
I agree that at a large scale it is great to have midwives assisting mothers. I'm saying that at an individual level it is difficult to know what is best. And ultimately the law recognises that it is for a woman to make that choice about whether or not to be assisted in something that is really not a straightforward medical 'procedure'. Indeed some women view birthing as not something medical at all.

It's about keeping an open mind and recognising that others may make different but legitimate choices for their own reasons. Just because free birthing wouldn't be my first choice doesn't mean I can't recognise instances where women may make that choice for themselves.

it is, in the UK at least, a woman's right to opt for a free birth.

Apparently so.

That’s not the issue though. It’s whether you can support/respect a decision to free birth.

@oblada the fact the maternal death rate is a lot lower with proper medical assistance shows that intervention is a lot safer than a lack of intervention.

For everyone saying it is her body etc, yes, but once you commit to having the baby you are responsible for their wellbeing. Everyone is so disapproving of a woman smoking in pregnancy, but when it comes to attempting a first birth with no medical assistance (despite the fact it is available) everyone is all 'her body her rules'.

It is a poor prognosis for her parenting skills if she is putting her own experience before the safety or even life of her baby.

Also what is deemed an unnecessary intervention? I see that phrase all the time on here, yet nobody says what constitutes 'unneccessary'.

Your insides are covered for a reason

It's every woman's choice whether to have a scan, but that is the stupidest reasoning I have ever heard.

So we shouldn't have x-rays, CT scans, MRI scans, or any form of surgery, then? After all, our insides are covered for a reason. And definitely no CS deliveries. Our insides are covered for a reason.

Indeed some women view birthing as not something medical at all.

Why are they ignoring the many, many medical issues that regularly occur as part of the birthing process?

Blood loss, oxygen deprivation, breathing issues, infection?

Sometimes there’s no need for medical assistance, but often there is and crucially, you can’t predict that.

@LaurieMarlow scans aren't all that.

Did you mean that for someone else. I didn’t mention scans.

Laurie - because they recognise it's not just about the stats over a high number of women but about their own individual circumstances and risk factors which may make the risk assessment different for them specifically.
They cannot predict that everything will be plain sailing but neither can you predict that your hospital/assisted birth will not lead, on this occasion, to unnecessary medical interventions causing serious harm to mum and baby. We just don't know.

So yes over the scale of a population it is best to promote assisted births as overall the outcomes will be better overall for the majority/higher numbers but at individual level we simply cannot say.

So for that reason alone I recognise that it is a woman's right to make her own decision, hopefully guided by relevant information and indeed the advice and guidance of her midwife.

They cannot predict that everything will be plain sailing but neither can you predict that your hospital/assisted birth will not lead, on this occasion, to unnecessary medical interventions causing serious harm to mum and baby.

Nothing is risk free.

There is no question at all over which poses the biggest risks.

And I fail to comprehend a set of circs whereby an untrained woman delivering herself could possibly be better than the involvement of professional help.

A woman had the right to do what she wants with her own body, yes. However we are not under any obligation to support or respect that decision.

It’s a dumb, selfish move in my eyes. But one that is hers to take.

@oblada can you please tell me about any set of factors that means having zero medical assistance during birth (not even a midwife at home) is safer than having even the most minimal medical assistance?

I find this really odd.

It’s not an opinion that it’s a dangerous move, it’s a fact.
They could both end up dead, she could have a home birth with minimal assistance from a midwife and that would give her a safety net.

TBH I think many women don't really realise how dangerous childbirth can be until they've been through it themselves when something wasn't straightforward. I think the stats are very good these days compared to when home birth with limited back up at the hospital was the norm 50 odd years ago.

One of my daughters was face presentation and completely stuck. Eventually born by EMCS she was eventually (after a lot of tugging) born with bruising on one side of her face.

I hope your friend does all her research carefully before she makes a final decision. Personally I think she's taking a grave risk to both her own and her unborn child's health.

The point is you cannot tell how each individual case will turn out. Statistically (overall for many people) yes it's safer to have assistance. But we are more than stats and knowing your case was 1 in a million for instance doesn't really change your own situation.

Take a simple example:
Woman is low risk, second birth no risk factor etc. She decides to have an assisted birth. Turns out the midwife/consultant makes a silly mistake (not even necessarily serious professional negligence) leading to disastrous consequences. This could have been avoided had she not had this medical intervention. Will she feel better knowing what she did was the expected norm? Or will she wish she had done it "alone" ? Maybe. I don't know. I genuinely don't know how I would feel. I hope I never find out.

Woman similarly low risk etc researches pros and cons and makes her own individual risk assessment. She has an unassisted birth and something goes wrong in a similar way. It could have been avoided by being in hospital for instance. Will she wish she had gone to hospital? Maybe. Again I don't know. I hope I never have to find out.

It's about making an informed choice and living with the consequences of it.

I wouldn't expect my friends to support my birthing choice - it's not for them to support. I wouldn't expect them to agree - they are free to disagree. But I would expect them to respect my right to make that choice.

When I was pregnant with my first a few people said animals manage fine, humans have over medicalised birth.
I've spent a lot of time around animals giving birth and recovering from birth. I know from experience that interventions are needed regularly and in the wild these animals would die. I've helped deliver stuck baby animals, calmed mothers in labour, helped establish feeding and treated mastitis. None of what I've seen has lead me to believe that interventions are bad or that animals some how magically pop their babies out without issue.