Freebirth. Fallen out with my friend. *title edited by MNHQ*

[whateveryouneed]

Friend is 3 months pregnant. We've been friends for around 5 years. Saw her today for the first time in 8 or so weeks. She was asking me about my pregnancy and son's birth. I was honest with her and told her how it went (she already knew a fair bit but not finer details). She said it scared her a bit hearing about my son being born blue and floppy, completely flatlined. He had to be intubated and resuscitated (he's 100% fine and healthy now).

The reason it scared her is because she's planning a freebirth. She wants to give birth in her bathtub at home (rural, about 18 miles from the nearest town, further from nearest hospital). She wants no medical assistance. Just her and her husband.

I told her (fairly firmly) that I think she needs to rethink that idea and that it could be really dangerous. She thinks that because she's not high risk (at the moment), that the chances of something going wrong are minimal. She thinks that if baby is head down that she will be fine.

AIBU to be really scared for her if she goes through with this? She's just told me she can't be friends with me throughout her pregnancy if I can't support her choice.

Not sure what to say or think...

I'm a little surprised at how many posters are conflating free birth and home birth on this thread. One of the reasons I chose a home birth second time around was because I wanted the midwife's full attention, as opposed to sharing a midwife with several women when I was in hospital.

Indeed.

Then again, I've noticed that the majority of mumsnetters tend to be very anti home birth. So I'm not surprised some people have just lumped it into the same category as free birth.

Forget all the discussion on births. There are so many stories here. Personal, frightening, inspiring. Everyone unique. As every birth is. Unpredictable, as everyone is. My first birth plan was 3 pages long of airy fairy music homeopathy (in my defence, I had hyper emesis gravidarium. I would have eaten horseshit if it stopped me throwing up). Emcs put paid to that.
2nd more realistic for vbac. Third: go in pregnant, come out with baby.

This is just an unhealthy friendship. It's run its course.

Focus on you, your baby, your family. Healing trauma of traumatic birth.

So much will happen over the next few months. Leave her be with her thinking. Plenty of opportunities for others to tell her to think otherwise. Plenty of opportunities for her to find out pregnancies don't go to plan, hippy or otherwise.

@Kittywampus

I'm a little surprised at how many posters are conflating free birth and home birth on this thread. One of the reasons I chose a home birth second time around was because I wanted the midwife's full attention, as opposed to sharing a midwife with several women when I was in hospital.

I think quite a few posters just don't understand what freebirth is. Quite a few talk about 'accidental freebirth' but of course freebirth cannot be accidental because it literally means planning to birth unattended by a HCP. These posters actually had a BBA (born before arrival) which can mean before arrival at a birthing unit or before arrival of a midwife etc etc

PrivateD00r thank you for your comprehensive answer! "Shits and giggles" means for the hell of it, basically. So the high rate of inductions here is partly because guidelines suggest that over waiting? Do you think we do that and other countries don't because the NHS is more risk averse, or because it's cheaper (eg than monitoring overdue babies)? What do you think about the Swedish trial of overdue babies which had to be halted due to stillbirths? www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/oct/28/post-term-pregnancy-research-cancelled-babies-die-sweden

Sorry but I think your friend is a total moron. Super dangerous for her and her baby. I was really cross with Clemmie Hooper (Mother of Daughters Instagram midwife) a few years ago for promoting this crazy freebirth woman on her page calling her amazing etc. I felt it was really irresponsible of someone with her influence to point people that way. So many of these freebirth types refuse all antenatal scans. I find it horrifying. Please don't support your friend in this stupid idea.

Also another voice to add to the whole point is that my baby and I also would have died without emergency c-section. Waters broke naturally but nothing happened, induction failed, never got beyond 1cm dilated and baby was in distress. In "olden days" we'd both be dead.

So many of these freebirth types refuse all antenatal scans. I find it horrifying

I totally agree. This movement has nothing going for it whatsoever. Utter stupidity.

What happens if you announce to a midwife you want a free birth I wonder?

And I agree with kittywampus that a free birth couldn’t be further from a homebirth.

One of the major advantage of a homebirth in my eyes is the designated midwife, focused entirely on you and the baby. I cannot understand why someone would actively choose to do without that.

Gosh - I know several people who've been in situations where either the mum or baby would've died in this scenario:

Friend A: baby's cord was very short and snapped during delivery. Baby was born very poorly and was needed a blood transfusion. Would've died if born anywhere other than the maternity unit in a major hospital where he was born.

Friend B: Massive post-partum haemorrhage. Needed an emergency transfer to theatre for manual removal of placenta and received lots of blood. Would've bled out if at home.

Friend C (homebirth) Baby was born with her hand by her head and got stuck. Luckily the midwife was very experienced and was able to manoeuvre the baby out. Was told baby would most likely have died before they could transfer to hospital if they hadn't have been able to shift her there and then, and thanks her lucky stars that she had such a competent midwife on duty that night.

Friend D: Baby was born quickly and unexpectedly breech, even though she'd had a scan the day before and she was definitely head down then. It was a tricky delivery and friend had to be cut to get the baby out. Baby was born blue and unresponsive but lucky was ok because neonatal doctors were crash-called at the point they saw feet not a head and so were there and were able to work on the baby as soon as she was out.

I don't understand why anyone would take the risk.

[quote WhiteCliffsBeside]PrivateD00r thank you for your comprehensive answer! "Shits and giggles" means for the hell of it, basically. So the high rate of inductions here is partly because guidelines suggest that over waiting? Do you think we do that and other countries don't because the NHS is more risk averse, or because it's cheaper (eg than monitoring overdue babies)? What do you think about the Swedish trial of overdue babies which had to be halted due to stillbirths? www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/oct/28/post-term-pregnancy-research-cancelled-babies-die-sweden[/quote]
I haven't read that paper for a while so I honestly cannot remember the details regarding whether there was any fetal monitoring carried out, but I do know that the study (rightly!) being stopped early makes it impossible to infer a conclusion given that the numbers were too small, yet this study has absolutely changed practice in many trusts to offering induction by 41 weeks. There was a Danish study conducted around the same time that concluded that there was no difference in outcomes when birth happened at 41 weeks or 42 weeks. That one didn't make the headlines though!

I read a really good paper on this in the British Journal of Midwifery a few months ago, March I think, but it isn't open access unfortunately.

Please don't think I am saying induction of labour shouldn't happen or that it is dangerous. I was just backing up a point a pp made about the iatrogenic risk of birthing in hospital, and I honestly think that a big part of that is induction. However it has its place and in a high risk pregnancy where it may prevent stillbirth for example, then that obviously greatly outweighs the risk of pph etc, which can be managed in the hospital setting.

I have definitely saw obstetric emergencies in low risk spontaneous pregnancies, but they are much less likely, hence low risk women being encouraged to birth at home or in stand alone midwifery units where they can avoid the cascade of intervention that commonly happens in labour wards (again, not dissing labour wards, I am a labour ward midwife and bloody love my job!).

• "Childbirth is a dangerous activity with a high mortality rate naturally". You're confusing childbirth and the whole pregnancy. *

No I'm really not. Childbirth is dangerous.
That doesn't mean that there aren't risks during pregnancy and post birth as well.
I think that if the risks of childbirth were more honestly discussed it would be less is shock for people when it goes wrong.
Many women manage to give birth safely but there are a significant minority who need medical support.

If nothing else, this thread is so enlightening on some of the realities of both home births and hospital births. Some of the stories shared here are heartbreaking, almost all are quite sobering.

In any case I hope OPs friend thinks long and hard about what she wants and the benefits/risks

If I’d have free birthed either of mine they’d have died. First one she just wouldn’t come, ended up with an episiotomy as I was fully dilated but she couldn’t fit and after close to 24 hours of active labour I was knackered. She was born blue and was immediately whisked away for resuscitation. Second I was scared after first but went for it. Had a better midwife but he still came out with the cord round his neck, grey and limp. I saw him and was sure he’d died. Thankfully the midwife unwrapped him and only needed to take him to the other side of the room for a wee wiggle and he was fine. Both in the same hospital but I’m done having babies as I can’t cope with the stress again.

The UK isn’t very progressive when it comes to these kind of choices (similar stories in the news about parents who refuse cancer treatment etc for their sick children and end up with their kids in care or facing prosecution)

Yes, what a pity the UK isn't progressive enough to let children die of treatable cancers because of their parents' prejudices

Blackbear19 - I cannot answer what causes the 'most' trauma as you are giving only one example and that example is of a woman not following medical guidance.

You can't work out what causes most trauma between being traumatised by EMCS and a live baby or being traumatised by going against guidance and having a dead baby.
I think it would be fairly clear which would cause most trauma.

Induction gets a lot of bad press especially on forums. But the issue is nobody can really say what the risks are for individuals or the baby.
You can't have a control group to compare against. Its believed older (over 40s) are at increased risk of placenta failure. You can't really ask a few thousand 40 something mums to put their babies at risk so we can find out how safe it is to allow them to go to 41 weeks.

And some of the most horrific birth stories lve heard is where mums were left pushing for too long without intervention.

Blackbear - I'm pretty sure there are instances of mum/baby dying because of medical intervention just like there are instances of mum/baby dying because of a lack of intervention. It's not black and white. It's not a case of 'worse case scenario is trauma in one case' (trauma can also lead to people dying over time) and 'worse case scenario is death in the other'. The risks are there in both cases, different risks and different probabilities depending on the situation of course and I wouldn't advocate withdrawing altogether from medical care during pregnancy. Just saying it's not black and white.

Just saying it's not black and white.

I’m confident in stating that expert assisted birth is safer than free birthing IS black and white.

Laurie - glad you're an expert in the subject. I wouldn't be so sure tbh. There are many variables at play. Like I said it doesn't mean I'd choose a free birth myself. I've not researched it enough. But I'm confident that the pros and cons and risks very much depend on the specific circumstances.

Haven't RTFT but I think if you announced you were going to stop all midwife appointments after 20 weeks, there would be concerns raised about you with social services. I may be wrong. I'm also not sure you can pick and choose and demand to just have one scan near the end of your pregnancy!

I don't understand why she wants a freebirth rather than a homebirth. Has she had a bad experience or interaction with her midwife? I think you can usually ask to have a different midwife if so.

I wouldn't be so sure tbh. There are many variables at play.

You’re not sure based on what exactly?

How can you possibly argue this? In what circs could expert help be worse than winging it yourself when you have no knowledge of what you’re doing and can’t physically help yourself if even if you could?

It’s insane.

@oblada that’s it though you could have a very very low risk pregnancy and things still go wrong in labour making it a risky birth. It is black and white, midwifes have been around for centuries way before doctor assisted birth, why would they suddenly become redundant. It’s a very dangerous and selfish way of thinking, how anyone could role the dice with their child’s life like that for not other reason other than for their comfort or wishes is extremely concerning.

For example ...

Shoulder dystocia, what do you do?
Baby stuck in the birth canal, what do you do?
Baby born not breathing, what do you do?
You start to haemorrhage, what do you do?

A low risk pregnancy doesn’t mean that these kinds of things won’t happen.

Laurie - as I (and others) said upthread medical presence can lead to unnecessary medical interventions which can spiral out. So in the case of a straightforward second birth for instance it is far from impossible that being unassisted would work better.

Medical professionals are not perfect and do not make the right calls all the time.

Anyone wanting a free birth should research it thoroughly and come informed and prepared. Otherwise yes I agree they are reckless.

midwifes have been around for centuries way before doctor assisted birth, why would they suddenly become redundant

Exactly.

I get the reaction against clinical hospital environments, but free birthing goes against thousands and thousands of years of human practice.