Freebirth. Fallen out with my friend. *title edited by MNHQ*

[whateveryouneed]

Friend is 3 months pregnant. We've been friends for around 5 years. Saw her today for the first time in 8 or so weeks. She was asking me about my pregnancy and son's birth. I was honest with her and told her how it went (she already knew a fair bit but not finer details). She said it scared her a bit hearing about my son being born blue and floppy, completely flatlined. He had to be intubated and resuscitated (he's 100% fine and healthy now).

The reason it scared her is because she's planning a freebirth. She wants to give birth in her bathtub at home (rural, about 18 miles from the nearest town, further from nearest hospital). She wants no medical assistance. Just her and her husband.

I told her (fairly firmly) that I think she needs to rethink that idea and that it could be really dangerous. She thinks that because she's not high risk (at the moment), that the chances of something going wrong are minimal. She thinks that if baby is head down that she will be fine.

AIBU to be really scared for her if she goes through with this? She's just told me she can't be friends with me throughout her pregnancy if I can't support her choice.

Not sure what to say or think...

If this is her decision and she is not being pushed (I hope she's not being pressured into this) she may change her mind later on. My friend who I met at nct classes arrived adamant she wanted a home birth, her partner was clearly not confident about it but she was dead set. The 2nd week after we'd gone through all the stages of labour, risks etc, she asked if she could request a c section 😂

In all seriousness, I hope she reconsiders, it sounds very risky.

I completely agree with you op. I had a textbook pregnancy with ds1 and had no ideas he would get stuck and that I would end up needing several tranfusions which saved my life. I have no doubt that neither of us would be here today had I not been in a hospital. I feel very nervous when I hear of people having home births for this reason, especially with a first baby, you just don’t know how it’s going to go.

Her choice. I can see why she would want to. I can see why most women wouldn't. I didn't have freebirths but I do see the appeal- and the drawbacks, of course- and it's hard to have a reasonable discussion about them when the response is overwhelming vitriol and scorn.

Your choice whether to support her or not. It does seem insensitive of her to choose you of all people to seek support around this from.

Homebirth sounds the ideal option for her and maybe as she learns more about the potential risks of a completely unattended birth she will come round to that.

Surely if she disengages from midwife care then that would be flagged to someone? Social services?

I had three low risk pregnancies, but categorically know that my children wouldn't be here now if it wasn't for the quick thinking/supervision of midwives.
The third one was a particularly scary shoulder dystocia case. There was no way that could have been predicted

The " natural" birth crew are so annoying.

Oh my days! I'm with you op I couldn't support this at all I'm all for people having free choice but this is another level. She is being completely naive. If I had done this neither me or my daughter would be here today. Child birth is unpredictable even without being high risk or having any complications. If she doesn't have any apps after 20 weeks she could be missing high blood pressure, gd a whole host of other things. Sorry but she's being naive at best and selfish and crazy at worst. I would have to distance myself as well if it was me op. Sorry for your experience I'm so glad everything turned out OK in the end. I hope your friend sees sense. Can you show her this thread? X

She wants him to deliver the baby on his own with no medical presence at all.

Actually, I believe this is illegal. My recollection is that whilst it is not illegal to plan to have your baby while unaccompanied, it is illegal to plan for someone who is not a midwife to deliver the baby with you.

(Haven't read the entire thread, just the OPs posts, so sorry if I am repeating someone...)

It is really difficult to change someones mind once they are determined to do something. I would not talk about this subject directly with her but instead encourage her to seek support that might influence her decision.

For example could you encourage her to join an nct or other anti natal group by focussing on the other positives which might come from this e.g making new friends etc. This group may then influence her thinking when she is further along.

I wonder where her fears of having a midwife attend come from. I had a home birth with both of mine but I did so becuase I knew I would have 2 to 1 midwife support and quick identification of any problems and hospital transfer if needed. If she could speak to some home birth midwives it might do a lot to absolve her fears of having a midwife present. The way to change someones mind is to focus on the positives of an alternative approach rather than to tell them their way of thinking is wrong.

There is some insight into the decision making process around freebirth here. It seems to have a lot to do with disliking a loss of control and more common amongst women with aspergers.
bmcpregnancychildbirth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12884-016-0847-6

My grandmother nearly died giving birth to her first child (my mother). My mother nearly died with her. Fortunately they were in hospital and are both here to tell the tale 60 years later. Grandmother was a fit and healthy 21 year old, who had had a straightforward pregnancy.

If they had died I obviously wouldn't be here. Same applies to my Mums younger siblings and all my cousins.

Childbirth is dangerous and can sadly go very wrong.

She might change her mind, she has months to go yet. I think the free birth thing is so shortsighted. The reason that midwifery and medical help during birth exists is because so many women and babies used to die during childbirth, when ‘free birth’ was the only option.

A friend of a friend was pregnant at the same time that I was pregnant with my second. She was coming out with all sorts of rubbish (don’t know why she thought she was an expert on something she’d never experienced). She talked about this kind of thing a lot, about how our bodies naturally know what to do and that the only reason women tear is because they push too hard . Thankfully, she did opt for a home birth accompanied by a midwife so she could be quickly transferred when she badly tore and needed treatment.

As loads of other people have said, I had a textbook first pregnancy. Not a single problem throughout, and I was only 19, fit and healthy. I developed pre-eclampsia suddenly during labour which became eclampsia within the space of a few hours. Thankfully, I only started fitting a minute or two after I’d given birth, otherwise my child wouldn’t have survived. I might well have died if I hadn’t had immediate medical assistance, and ended up unable to move with no memory and intense confusion in intensive care. Nobody thinks it will happen to them, but these things do happen to people who have otherwise been completely healthy. A lot of people I know have experienced complications during labour, and my second was similar to what you described, with shoulder dystocia and needing resuscitation and I then started to haemorrhage! Both of those had babies in optimal, head down position but it was irrelevant because lots of other things can go wrong.

The midwives she sees might be able to advise her better as they are experts and probably come across this before. I don’t know what I’d say, probably that I support her right to choose but cannot support the choice itself as it puts them in unnecessary danger and I’m only concerned for their safety. I think is extreme to cut off a friend for not agreeing with their choice - I don’t agree with every choice my friends make, which I think is perfectly normal. We have different experiences and different priorities.

My oldest and I wouldn’t have survived a notmal homebirth, let alone one without a medical professional....
Disengage and hope she comes to her senses.

I think hoping that the friend will change her mind over the next six months is a bit naive.

I read an article on the free birth movement written by a woman who had tragically lost her baby when she attempted to go it alone. She said that towards the end of her pregnancy she started to wobble, but other contributors would be so militant that they persuaded her from seeking professional advice.

If anything, I’d put money on her becoming more and more convinced that she’s doing the right thing due to being in a nutty social media echo chamber.

So it’s almost unanimous that she’s making a very poor decision. The only matter remaining is what YOU do. You’ve told her how you feel and what the risks are and she doesn’t want to hear it. At this point, I would be honest. Tell her that you care very much for her but you can’t be onboard with a decision that you feel is dangerous and unwise. And that you won’t ram your opinion down her throat but you won’t be dishonest and pretend that you support a free birth either. Then it’s up to her really, isn’t it, whether she wishes to maintain the friendship? That said, could you continue the friendship through the pregnancy and keep quiet every time she mentions her plans? Not sure I could.

I thought it was illegal to give birth without a midwife or doctor available (emergencies excepted, of course).

I would wonder if she's too scared to plan to have a supervised birth? Is thinking that if no one is involved it'll just happen and all will be ok - as it does happen for some people ( the vast majority of whom don't plan it and wouldn't repeat it like that!) I would encourage this friend to talk about why she doesn't any anyone there - what her fears are and how they can be more sensibly and safely dealt with.

@Merryoldgoat

My son was head down at 36 weeks. Breech at 38. Head down at 38+3 when I had to go for assessment. Breech 38 + 6 when I went in for section.

Her scan could mean fuck all.

This was my thought too!

It seems an ideal way of flagging yourself for ss involvement and rightly so.

I wonder if @MitziKvis correct in saying the dh is behind it all.

Apart from anything else, it's such nauseating Western privilege to think this is a good idea. COntrary to what some of these posts suggest, women dying in childbirth is very much NOT "what used to happen". It still happens to hundreds of thousands of women a year.

Well if she stops all antenatal appointments after about 20 weeks that will raise a red flag and will ultimately result in a social services referral. If she does free birth that won't go unnoticed and social services will be down on her like a ton of bricks. I have known of one free birth where the baby died at birth. I have been at home births which unexpectedly become complicated. Thankfully a quick blue light to the nearest maternity unit saved the lives of both mother and baby. Your friend needs to have a head wobble.
Midwife

I think it's understandable (but wrong) that she doesn't want you to be hounding her about your opinion. You think what she's doing is dangerous, but it's not illegal and ultimately you don't get a say.

BUT... she's ridiculous if she thinks that you should now change your mind, be 100% supportive and on board, particularly based on your own experience. Like others, I know that without a hospital at least one of my DC would be brain damaged or dead. IN dd's case, incredibly, what saved her is that I was being induced - if I'd gone into natural labour there's very little doubt she'd have been brain damaged at the very least.

We are all products of our experience and knowledge and if she thinks being a friend means agreeing with everything she says and does, then this is a friendship you don't need. I'm sorry.

As a side note, my midwife when I had DD had a free birth - completely by mistake and unplanned as she went into labour and didn't make it to the hospital, being forced to deliver on the side of the road about a mile away with just her boyfriend there. She told me that she is an experienced midwife, had already had 2 children in easy births, but that the experience of free birthing, knowing what could go wrong, was the absolutely scariest experience of her life......

Controversial opinion here:

If she's had three without issues at all, I'd risk it, as things will probably not go wrong. Imo a lot of stuff happens because doctors are too trigger-happy. Birth should actually be something for clinicians to watch and not participate in.

Personally, all my pregnancies were more or less without issues (ob wasn't fussed). But my first birth was horrendous because the midwife, by her own account, completely misjudged the situation. In the end it was ventouse in hospital (though I think that would probably have happened anyway) and mild shoulder distocia. My second, with our 4.3kg boy, was a serene affair until he got so spectacularly stuck that my ob was still white in the face about it two months on. They thought DS was dead. I also started to bleed (issue solved swiftly with an injection). My third, the smallest of the three, also got stuck, but not as bad. She was born alert. My midwife said that was the only good birth I'd had.

So, with my small pelvis (the smallest and most awkward kind) and big babies, I wouldn't consider freebirthing at all. But in most cases there are no issues and if a woman has had several, she quite frankly knows when something's up.

If it's her first, then definitely not. You don't know how you labour and how prone to complications you are.

If she's disengaging, she might well be scared of all the 'supervision', which I can definitely understand. It may have contributed to the high blood pressure I had with my first.
Part of the solution could be to hire a private midwife, as she'll have someone she knows and trusts and crucially, who knows her. That's really invaluable, IMO, and why I'm happy I'm in Germany and not somewhere where they think all women are the same.

If she does free birth that won't go unnoticed and social services will be down on her like a ton of bricks.

Really? What do you think they will do? If the birth has gone well, mother and child are healthy and thriving, no attempts to avoid all health services etc- what role would social services have to play? What exactly do you think they would have grounds to act on?

If she's had three without issues at all, I'd risk it, as things will probably not go wrong

I can’t even fathom this.

I doubt there’s ever been a point in history where it was preferable for women to birth without any trained assistance. Some form of midwife would always have been present. Why wouldn’t you want that?