Freebirth. Fallen out with my friend. *title edited by MNHQ*

[whateveryouneed]

Friend is 3 months pregnant. We've been friends for around 5 years. Saw her today for the first time in 8 or so weeks. She was asking me about my pregnancy and son's birth. I was honest with her and told her how it went (she already knew a fair bit but not finer details). She said it scared her a bit hearing about my son being born blue and floppy, completely flatlined. He had to be intubated and resuscitated (he's 100% fine and healthy now).

The reason it scared her is because she's planning a freebirth. She wants to give birth in her bathtub at home (rural, about 18 miles from the nearest town, further from nearest hospital). She wants no medical assistance. Just her and her husband.

I told her (fairly firmly) that I think she needs to rethink that idea and that it could be really dangerous. She thinks that because she's not high risk (at the moment), that the chances of something going wrong are minimal. She thinks that if baby is head down that she will be fine.

AIBU to be really scared for her if she goes through with this? She's just told me she can't be friends with me throughout her pregnancy if I can't support her choice.

Not sure what to say or think...

A lady here in Australia died whilst freebirthing. Her baby died, too. And it was considered a low-risk birth.

I haemorrhaged after giving birth and spent a few days in ICU. I had to have several blood transfusions and would not have survived were I not in a very high hospital. This was also a low-risk birth.

Things can - and do - go wrong. Very quickly.

This friendship probably won’t survive anyway OP. This is likely to be the first of many bizarre decisions she makes regarding her child. If she’s so adamantly against any medical intervention she’ll also probably be an anti-vaxxer and if her child gets a serious illness will want to treat it herself herbally and it will tragically end up in the Coroners Court. Sometimes there’s such a divergence of opinion that a friendship can’t surmount it and this may be one of those times.

Your friend has a really romanticised view on childbirth and it's great that she is feeling positive and empowered about the whole thing but to not consider risk is negligent.

We each have our own stories and experiences but I think we'd all mostly agree that the pain of childbirth is like
no other. It is a complete shock to the system. It'll humble her at the very least, terrify and derail her at worst.

To not even have an experienced woman there is questionable. I had water births each time and had requested midwives to be hands off which was respected. I wanted lights off and silence. It was the biggest comfort to have my midwife quietly check baby's heartbeat etc while I was labouring and I know I had the relaxed state of mind I wanted because I knew she was close by. I am incredibly fortunate that there weren't any medical issues -we only have to read the board here to realise this. DH was nothing short of useless tbh. Is he the one pushing for this?

So far, all responses including mine have focused on her (and our own birth experiences) but I can't help but comment that your 'friend' is being incredibly selfish and dare I say it, a bit brutal towards you.

It begs the question, given your birth experience, what the hell are you meant to say? You've had an incredibly traumatic time so how on earth can you endorse what she intends to do? All we as women can ever do is to pass on our own personal wisdom and she's being stupid, naive and incredibly cruel to expect you to buy into her 'magical plans' and forget about your own trauma. Birthing is such a monumentally huge moment for us, it stays with us forever and so it should - it educates.

You are expressing concerns because you care. You are being a true friend here and she is testing you unfairly. Frankly, I'd tell her so and step away.

This is so incredibly selfish. The only thing that will be obvious to the husband is if his wife is in difficulty - not his baby. What if the baby is in distress? If his heat rate or oxygen levels drop? How does the husband expect to know that without any medical equipment.

Both my births were emergency CS. We all would have died each time. I had very straight forward pregnancies so they came out of no where

@IWantT0BreakFree's post resonates with me too. I know this situation is about her, but she's being a bit of a shit friend to you to be honest.

This entire thread is a sobering reminder of what Mumsnet would have been like a hundred years ago, since it feels as if half the MNers on it would either be dead or mourning lost babies - many more than are mourning lost babies or friends today. Just as reminder, in parts of the world where women don't have a choice about how they give birth, up to 1 in 75 pregnancies leads to the mother's death. In MN terms that would probably be one maternal death for every single antenatal group? Maybe every other one at best.

In terms of your dilemma, OP, it sounds as if your friend has been told that she needs to surround herself with positivity if her freebirth is to go well and hence why you are being shut out.

I think I would make clear to her as suggested above that it is incredibly insensitive of her to expect you to be supportive given what you have been through. However, it's up to her to educate herself so for example this chart shows the death rate compared to the number of births attended by skilled health staff. Noting that is illegal to plan to use her DH as a midwife and then wishing her all the best.

I think it would be too traumatic for you to have to hear about her plans.

I'm off to donate to Doctors without borders in order to help women who don't have your friend's choices. I quite agree with @PyongyangKipperbang's comment:

"..easy to be Earth Mother when you know Mother NHS is just around the corner with her army of trained professionals ready to save your childs life from your narcissistic fuck up"

A couple of things I forgot to add:

My friend had a baby when she was 28, everything was considered extremely low-risk, no warning signs of anything. She went on to have a pretty extreme post partum haemorrhage and nearly died. Receiving a blood transfusion very, very quickly saved her life. If she'd have had a free birth she literally would not have pulled through. She'd have almost certainly died before an ambulance had reached her, let alone got her to a hospital. Her situation really isn't that rare - just look at all the stories on this thread.

Also I'm really sorry for your traumatic experience with your ds, it's great that he's fine now

I wouldn't actually want to be friends with someone who dismissed your trauma so easily and demanded that you be supportive of her stupid plan. Right after you told her what you'd been through, she follows up with that? No wonder you found it triggering. Loads of women don't believe things can go wrong. That's something that happens to other people. Except it's not.

Birth is bloody dangerous. Women and babies still die or end up with life altering injuries. It's not a game.

@EverdeRose I'm sorry you have had - traumatic experience, and I'm glad your midwifery team are supporting you. But you're missing some major points and think they need to give you more support.

At the actual point of birth is where the least touching of you occurs. The baby isn't 'caught', they don't actually fire out of you like a canon, it manoeuvres slowly and gently and needs to be held. The speed of this process depends entirely on your contractions and whether you are having to push or not.

Are you going to have an examination to assess how far along you are?
Are you going to have any pain relief?
How will you birth the placenta?
What if you need stitches for repair or an episiotomy?

These are all things that require a medical professional to touch you and I would highly advise you to seek help in being able to deal with these things before the actual day.

DH holding the baby during birth is way down the list of managing your anxiety and I'm surprised the midwife team haven't pointed this out already.

You only have to read a few Victorian novels - it was so easy then for an author to kill someone off - and probably the baby too - by having them oh so conveniently die in childbirth.

No reader in those days would have thought, ‘Well, that’d be highly unlikely, wouldn’t it?’ - and tossed the book aside in disgust.

A friend of mine is a midwife and another is a paramedic, they have both said to me that they would not even risk a home birth with midwives present themselves, I asked my midwife what her opinion on home birth was and she said she would prefer to be in hospital too, just in case - because you cannot predict what is going to happen.

I would t be able to support that either. I couldn't pretend I was happy with it. I know too many people who had things go wrong during labour and then relied on medicine to help them, and quickly.

It’s up to her. She knows the risks and has decided to do it this way anyway. If something goes wrong it’ll be on her.
I wouldn’t get involved at all.

Besides, as soon as those contraction start really kicking in, she’ll change her tune and make that call. Any money you like.

I'm another one who would have died had I not been at hospital. Baby was in distress too and was stuck so may not have ended well for her either.

Your friend is being a selfish idiot - she has made it clear what she thinks of your opinions and your friendship - I would struggle to be friends with someone who would risk a baby like this anyway.

There are a couple of good suggested messages earlier in the thread which i would combine and send.

In other news, her stance that you can’t be her friend if you don’t kiss her arse over this makes her sound like a self important twat.
Is she always so full of herself?

Your friend is an idiot. She’s been very selfish and already a negligent parent because she’s shown she can’t put the baby’s needs first. She’s proven she can’t properly look after this child before it’s even born.

If I knew anyone like that I would report her decision to her doctors/hospital so at the very least they were aware of her stupid decision and then cut all contact.

to every single woman on this thread. Talking about this is cathartic and for many, distressing. Good luck OP, but you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. All you can do is say your bit and then walk away. We all hope she has the birth of her dreams, but we all know that the reality is very different.

I had quite an "ideal" birth, minimum pain relief, very quick labour (less than 2 hours start to finish), very minor tear/graze, however I wouldn't have want to be anywhere other than hospital! I'm not stupid in knowing things can go wrong.

I'm pregnant now with my second and I've been advised several times to consider a home birth but I'd honestly rather give birth in the car/ambulance on the way to hospital knowing proper hospital care was nearby!

You're only setting yourself up for upset if you're not willing to consider anything other than having an easy breezy birth.

I never understand this ‘respect her choice’ idea. You wouldn’t say that if someone was starving their child or about to jump out in front of a car. If someone is about to do some serious injury to themselves or others we intervene.
I would reply to say some thing like.. I think you’re right and it’s probably best if we don’t speak for a while. I couldn’t live with myself if I kept quiet or encouraged you to birth without medical back up and something happened to you or baby. It would break my heart. Please do tell me if you decide to have an NHS homebirth and please do let me know that baby has been born safely. With love....

I agree with @Saracen's post.

mathanxiety
"The hypnobirthing and free birth movements discourage all but the most glowing narratives about these approaches."
Please don't lump these two things together. Hypnobirthing is about helping women to feel calm and confident before and during labour, however they give birth - it's absolutely not about refusing medical assistance!

I wouldn’t ‘respect her choice’ I’d think she was an idiot...but I wouldn’t agonise over it when there is nothing I can realistically do to intervene.
She’s made it clear she won’t be told.

What a stupidly selfish woman. She probably wants to boast about how natural and superior she is. She may be low risk but absolutely anything can go wrong especially if she is solely relying on her medically untrained husband. Feel like there should be a place to report her for this.

Hypnobirthing is about helping women to feel calm and confident before and during labour, however they give birth - it's absolutely not about refusing medical assistance!

Yes, important distinction to be made there. I did hypnobirthing with my first - whilst being induced in the hospital, and eventually having an epidural.

Have not read whole thread. When I went into labour with my first child, I had had a textbook pregnancy. No major problems at all. All check-ups fine. As soon as the midwife examined me, things changed. My daughter was in a frank breech presentation (jackknifed, ankles up by the ears). Nobody had spotted this at all at any point. She was also very big (4.5kg). There is no way I could ever have delivered her naturally. I had a caesarean and we were both fine. If I'd laboured on and on at home with no progress it would have been a very different story. Your friend is an idiot and if she can't see sense I hope her nearest and dearest can talk her out of this reckless plan.