Freebirth. Fallen out with my friend. *title edited by MNHQ*

[whateveryouneed]

Friend is 3 months pregnant. We've been friends for around 5 years. Saw her today for the first time in 8 or so weeks. She was asking me about my pregnancy and son's birth. I was honest with her and told her how it went (she already knew a fair bit but not finer details). She said it scared her a bit hearing about my son being born blue and floppy, completely flatlined. He had to be intubated and resuscitated (he's 100% fine and healthy now).

The reason it scared her is because she's planning a freebirth. She wants to give birth in her bathtub at home (rural, about 18 miles from the nearest town, further from nearest hospital). She wants no medical assistance. Just her and her husband.

I told her (fairly firmly) that I think she needs to rethink that idea and that it could be really dangerous. She thinks that because she's not high risk (at the moment), that the chances of something going wrong are minimal. She thinks that if baby is head down that she will be fine.

AIBU to be really scared for her if she goes through with this? She's just told me she can't be friends with me throughout her pregnancy if I can't support her choice.

Not sure what to say or think...

I completely agree with you OP, I don't think most births go textbook perfect and a lot need some help.

For me personally I had nightmare births!

DC1 labour was a little over half an hour and baby and I were both shocked and baby needed help to start breathing
DC 2 was back to back and needed midwives to help to turn him as he was a big bugger
DC3 was horrendous everything wonderful until she was born en caul thank god as she had velamentous cord insertion which scans didn't pick up on (if my waters had gone it would've been emergency csection as we'd both be haemorrhaging), then midwife was pulling on the cord to help placenta to be delivered and the cord broke so I was rushed to theatre as I was then haemorrhaging
DC4 was the worst, trainee midwife missed that baby was losing oxygen on each contraction for over an hour, the cord and prolapsed and each contraction/push was starving her of oxygen, she had decided to be superman and had 1 arm already being born. Shit hits the fan emergency and room filled with people, suddenly the bed was moved so I was feet in the air and 1 doc was pushing babys head back into me, one doc was pushing the cord back in for a keilands forceps delivery, 11lb baby meant huge tearing and internal damage and baby was immediately ran to NICU. She'd been significantly starved of oxygen so we were warned there was a high chance of cerebral palsy which we would have to wait to find the extent. Her vocal cords and neck muscles were badly damaged with force of delivery, she couldn't make a sound until 8mths old and her eyes were affected. Thankfully other than a hoarse voice she is absolutely fine now after her traumatic birth.
If I'd of given birth with no help, myself & babies wouldn't be here. It's your friends choice but she'd taken unnecessary risk and I couldn't support that

OP, my first DC was a homebirth which went wrong, and we both nearly died. I'm still not sorry that I tried, though. Subsequent DC were ELCS, not least due to damage caused by the first delivery.

So I agree with you. However, I wouldn't fall out with a friend who was proposing a freebirth. It isn't your decision. Plus she is only 3 months pregnant, so has loads of time to change her mind.

A good friend would point out the pitfalls but would still ultimately support her choice. Even if she thought it was a really bad one.

I have to admit to wondering if the partner is partly behind this for, shall we say, less than supportive reasons?

I had a friend years ago who had her first with her ex who insisted that she not go to hospital as they didnt need hospital. It was a special experience for only them. He was vile abusive and didnt want them seeing her vaginal injuries. She was young and had no idea how abused she was. She told me much much later that he had raped her with a beer bottle with the cap still on so couldnt birth naturally, and it was only when the horror on the midwives faces showed that she realised it really was that bad. Took many years an another child before she escaped though. I didnt know her then, got to know her after but the image of what she told me has stayed with me since.

"Her body her choice"

Well it is her baby's life. She doesn't own it.

Perfect hospital birth ended with an emergency caesarean for me because the cord got around the baby's neck.
Freebirth??? Utterly selfish.

Her body, her baby, let her crack on.

That sounds very dangerous. Does her husband really want that level of responsibility?! Americans do it because they hardly have any midwives in many areas, So sometimes the alternative is very very medicalised or women sadly can’t afford help... and so a whole ‘movement’ has sprung up. In the U.K. with free health care and midwife assisted home births supported, it makes zero sense.

@wolfgirrl
I completely understand what you mean, I will be happy for any and all interventions I need (If I need them). But sadly the trauma I've been left with from a previous experience means that to me, the fear of being touched by a medical professional is far worse than the pain could ever be.

Luckily I have a massively supportive midwifery team and DH who all agree and will help make the birth as fear free as possible. If I need help then I need help and they'll be there to provide it, if I don't they'll make themselves as small as possible and peer in around the door to guide DH. Our alternative was a C Section under GA so I'm hugely grateful at justbthe opportunity to avoid that.

Op I'd be worried about what is driving the decision, an over zealous husband, historic abuse, mentally ill, brainwashing from religious cult. I think I'd pre warn her mum, MW, GP, and possibly SS. It just doesn't sound like a rational woman talking.

obviously in some countries or in some circumstances women do give birth without a midwife but it's a lot of responsibility on her presumably inexperienced DH
I'd take a fair bet that even in countries without formal MWs. They'll be some informal midwives, village ladies who attend births with hand me down knowledge of how to remove cords round babies necks, breathing, how to resuscitate and get a baby on the boob etc. They'll have limits on what they can do and limited resources but they'd still be a heck of a lot better than a man who's clueless.

A friend in Africa had to give birth in a mud hut in the middle of nowhere but other women who were midwives of a sort were there to assist.

I am pro home birth but I think free birth is different and absolutely crazy. Like you, OP, I would struggle to know what to say to a friend who was considering it.

I wonder if it would help to explain to your friend that it's difficult for you be positive about the plan because of your own birth experience? Could you suggest an "agree to disagree" type approach whereby the two of you don't talk about her birth plans but apart from that continue as normal? It seems very extreme to say that you can't be friends and can't be in touch unless you are positive about the plan It does make me wonder if she has any mental health issues, past trauma or anything. Either that or she is just spectacularly naive.

If the two of you were able to smooth things over, and she was able to trust that it came from a supportive place rather than a disapproving place, I would advise making some constructive suggestions to her: a hypnobirthing course for example (the Positive Birth Company does an online course) and maybe looking into getting a doula. These are both perceived as "hippy" things and they might appeal to her desire for as natural and straightforward a birth as possible. But they will also help her to get more informed about the realities of giving birth. Both hypnobirthing and a doula can be used during any kind of birth so they might help her feel more open minded about the other options.

Of course, it's her choice, and it's not your responsibility to change her mind, even if you could. So if it is upsetting you to engage with her about this, it would be totally fair enough for you step back and leave her to it. Personally though I would leave the door open and say that even though you don't support the free birth idea you do of course still love her and wish her well whatever she chooses. Then hopefully she will come back to you when she is in a different headspace. And if she doesn't, her loss.

your friend is a fool putting her baby and herself in danger

@everderose yes, I suspect that would technically fall in to the illegal category; the midwives are not attending the birth and if they are in a different room, they are relying on your husband to assess you thus he would be taking on a midwife's/doctor's role and therefore acting illegally. It's not just the technical measurements of labour that can hint at a problem, it's the midwife's experience, her other senses, the subtle changes she has come to appreciate over many years of practise which feed in to this assessment.

Unless you've had meetings with the Supervisor of Midwives, I do not know how the midwives have agreed to this. Assuming they are NHS midwives and you haven't had a meeting with the Supervisor of Midwives, they will be acting outside of the scope of NICE guidelines and therefore will not be practising within their Trust's policies. Forgive me if I have the details wrong, it has been many years since I attended a delivery, but during the first stage of labour, the fetal heart must be auscultated at least every fifteen minutes for a minimum of one minute after a contraction, maternal pulse hourly, blood pressure, temp, pass urine and palpation and vaginal examination every four hours. The frequency of these increases significantly in the second stage if labour (which, even in normal labour, could last up to three hours for a first time mum). Obviously, you can refuse this and they will dcoument that, but there are good reasons these are recommended by NICE. If the midwives aren't offering this, I suspect they will face disciplinary action with the Trust and probably with the NMC, too.

Many years ago, I liked the idea of free birthing, I thought it sounded perfect. Now though, I have seen far too many labours and births to think that. I'm still in the planning stage (re: TTC) at the moment, but would hope for a home birth provided I was low risk.

I expect she’ll change her mind when the pain starts!

@PyongyangKipperbang
I use the word 'catch' because that's entirely the level of skill that would be involved for my DH to do this.
Many women who give birth in water 'catch' their baby.

Tell the story of your experience to her husband. She is risking the life of THEIR child. I'm all for women getting to make the final decision, but that has be from a range of options that are medically sensible. And does her poor husband actually want to have that pressure all on his own? How is he supposed to know what's normal and what isn't and whether or not to call an ambulance? That's really unfair pressure to put on him.

If something goes wrong, they'll both blame themselves for the rest of their lives, and it could well destroy their marriage.

I use the word 'catch' because that's entirely the level of skill that would be involved for my DH to do this

Oh bless you.

I dont know whether to laugh or cry.

Good luck. I mean that most sincerely.

This reminds me of a friend I had who ignored my telling about my trauma of almost losing my baby. She fell out with me (unrelated), and then it transpired that her second born child was stillborn from the exact same thing (placental abruption). I had told her that were it not for me living 3 mins in an ambulance from the hospital, my baby would have been dead. I'm sure she dismissed it at the time. In fact I recall her dismissing it. Like a scary story that someone tells you that isn't real. I can't imagine the pain she must feel as I almost and for a short while felt that I had lost my child. But sometimes there's no talking to people.

I should at that I genuinely sorry that you feel the need to do this because of previous trauma (I too had a horrible medical trauma, the PTSD is with me to this day and always will be) but you sound sadly undereducated in what it takes to actually birth a baby.

Feeling that all you need to do is get through the pain and then your husband catch the baby, could lead you to a bigger trauma over all than the one you have now.

Midwives care about you, then want to help you and will respect you, especially at home, mine were incredible. I didnt ask for a hands off approach but thats what you get as standard unless you need help ime at a home birth. But please, dont ask them to wait to be asked, trust them.

My midwife tried to convince me to have a home birth with both of mine. My dad is a gp and was massively against this due to things that could go wrong and not being able to get help quick enough. I didn’t need convincing and was always going to have a hospital birth. I bust a blood vessel with my first and the midwife had to press the emergency button to get help. Had a team of 4 people trying to stop the bleeding and sort me out. My husband said it looked like a car crash. I would have bled to death without intervention from the amazing team.

I had the same midwife again with my second and even at 38 weeks she still tried to convince me to have a home birth 🙄.

You can only do what you can with your friend, if she’s set her mind to it she’ll do it. You can only advise and leave her to it unfortunately.

Surely her best chance of a birth at home using the bath is by choosing to have a home birth with a midwife present. If they go it alone chances are they’ll panic and go into hospital.

@KaitK

That’s really interesting info, thank you. I didn’t realise how often mums were checked - tbf I was off my head on gas and air! (Marvellous stuff)

@EverdeRose I don't really understand this if I'm honest.

I will be happy for any and all interventions I need

So basically the same as most women? Midwives don't stick to you like glue just waiting for the opportunity to pounce when you're in labour. Even in my 'medicalised' birth (induction at 36 weeks) the midwife just popped in now and then until I was fully dilated. When I needed forceps, she was a very comforting presence as I had got to know her a little bit and trusted her. I wouldve found a room full of strangers a lot scarier.

Plus you can decline all internal examinations etc.

I'm assuming you have risk factors otherwise I assume you would be attempting a home birth?

I had a great home birth with my first. There’s no way on earth I would have a home birth without midwifes (at least 2) present! You need a couple of pairs of hands that know what they’re doing, one for the mum, one for the baby. Not one pair of fumbling hands.

*midwives

I'm glad I was in hospital when I had a cord prolapse. I didn't know what it was I just felt it happen. The midwife shot over and I had an emergency section with a general straight away. The last thing I remembered was them getting me onto a bed without doing any more damage. My baby was resuscitated and went to scbu.