Freebirth. Fallen out with my friend. *title edited by MNHQ*

[whateveryouneed]

Friend is 3 months pregnant. We've been friends for around 5 years. Saw her today for the first time in 8 or so weeks. She was asking me about my pregnancy and son's birth. I was honest with her and told her how it went (she already knew a fair bit but not finer details). She said it scared her a bit hearing about my son being born blue and floppy, completely flatlined. He had to be intubated and resuscitated (he's 100% fine and healthy now).

The reason it scared her is because she's planning a freebirth. She wants to give birth in her bathtub at home (rural, about 18 miles from the nearest town, further from nearest hospital). She wants no medical assistance. Just her and her husband.

I told her (fairly firmly) that I think she needs to rethink that idea and that it could be really dangerous. She thinks that because she's not high risk (at the moment), that the chances of something going wrong are minimal. She thinks that if baby is head down that she will be fine.

AIBU to be really scared for her if she goes through with this? She's just told me she can't be friends with me throughout her pregnancy if I can't support her choice.

Not sure what to say or think...

I had a home orthoptist with my second, the cord was around his need, he was blue and had also swallowed too much amniotic fluid, they had to clear his airways and I couldn’t hold my baby for what felt like forever. I had two amazing midwives, the second swooped in as soon as she could get to him and I dread to think what could have happened without her swift action.
Midwives are there for our support and protection, they know when something’s wrong and can act on it immediately.
It is incredibly dangerous, you can only hope as she gets further along she changes her mind, surely the midwives would be advising against it?
Labour is so unpredictable thigh, you can plan it all you want but who knows how it what actually happen until it starts.

[quote EverdeRose]@Wolfgirrllf

What difference would that make?
Due to previous issues, unless I need a midwife to touch me I don't want one to. If all goes to plan as most births do midwife will stand at the door and instruct DH how to catch.
If things don't go to plan and there is any issue I'll be the first to want and accept support.[/quote]
The fact that you are using the word "catch" gives it away tbh.

Babies dont just plop out like they do on tv. They can be facing the wrong way and need a little help getting out, they can have a shoulder stuck and need help, they can have the cord round their neck and it isnt as easy as you would think getting it off. They wont just come out and pulling them will damage them permanently.

Could a midwife walk in to your husbands workplace and do his job with not training, maybe having read a few books?

If not, why do you think he could do theirs?

I am a minimal intervention home birth advocate, but when the time comes you need to trust that they want and need a good outcome for you and your baby as much as you do.

I'm another one who had a low risk pregnancy that went wrong. Baby had a shoulder stuck leading to episiotomy, how on earth would your friends husband deal with that alone? Baby had an infection at birth and needed antibiotics. How would they have known what warning signs to look for? They were subtle but life threatening.

It's so naive to think that everything will go smoothly with a first time birth. I knew it would be hard, but it was 100 times harder and more complex than I expected.

I'm with you OP, I couldn't support this. She's putting her baby's life at risk. No-one wants a highly medicalised birth, but ultimately we put the health of ourselves and our babies above our desire to have the birth of our dreams. And as PP have said, homebirths in the UK are readily available and can be lovely, calm and really hands off.

I don't think I could be friends with someone who actively chose to have a freebirth.

I think you only have to watch 1 or 2 episodes of OBEM to realise that birth is unpredictable and potentially life threatening for mum or baby. I don't understand why anyone would take that risk to birth alone. I think your friend is misguided and you were right to advise her so.

She’s bonkers. And dangerously so. But it’s not your circus; all you can do is tell her about the general (huge!) risks and your own personal experience. But after that, there’s nothing you can do and it’s not your responsibility. She’s an adult and she gets to make her own choices, even if they are utterly fucking stupid ones.

As others have said, hopefully the reality of labour will change her mind PDQ. (And another one here who’d have been dead with a dead baby had I not been in hospital, so I understand how aghast you must be....)

I didn’t know “freebirths” were even a thing until now. Bit baffled by the whole thing. I presume people who want a “freebirth” would accept medical intervention if something was going wrong, so why not accept medical intervention before then? Surely you’re either pro medical intervention, or you’re not. At what point do you decide medical intervention is necessary?! As I say... baffled.

Probably worth pointing out that if she’s being this painful at 12 weeks pregnant then there is no hope she’ll be pleasant to be around when PFB does arrive. I’ve found learning to parent opposite my friends trickier than I have my DH. And those are all normal, rational people.

@Tillymintsmama

I think you only have to watch 1 or 2 episodes of OBEM to realise that birth is unpredictable and potentially life threatening for mum or baby. I don't understand why anyone would take that risk to birth alone. I think your friend is misguided and you were right to advise her so.

The problem is that women who are set on this approach will avoid such programmes as "forcing women into hospital by making them believe they cannot do it alone"

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

*Says the atheist....thank you Sunday school!

I’ve been lucky enough to have two successful home births. But the idea of going it alone without an experienced midwife? No way!

Anyone remember those parents in the paper who were like this and a manslaughter charge was brought when the baby died.

If all goes to plan as most births do midwife will stand at the door and instruct DH how to catch.

Most births “go to plan” in that the end result is a live mother and baby, but that doesn’t mean they’re totally without complications or problems. I only know one woman who had a “textbook birth”, which was remarked upon by the midwives (and led me to infer that it was unusual!). I don’t remember any “catching” going on, either! One of mine involved a very skilled registrar with a ventouse, the other an equally skilled midwife very carefully guiding the baby out.....

@whateveryouneed

She's still ultimately early on in her pregnancy and it sounds like she's swept up in the romance of freebirth. You've said what you've said, now just wait. There's months to go yet and I'd say its 99.9999% likely she'll change her mind. If you really value her friendship, tell her you disagree but you're still always there for her. Check in with her in a couple of months. And that's it. Try to separate your feelings about your own birth (totally understandable feelings) from this situation as otherwise you'll get even more upset.

I really think this won't end up happening- unless people fight her and drive her to dig her heels in further. She sounds ultimately that she's frightened of hospitals and a lot of interventions- that hopefully will settle down. But not if she's driven further into online freebirth groups that will reinforce her and make her think only they understand her.

My DD2 (Paed hospice nurse) has just worked with a couple whose home birth went horribly wrong .. baby lived a few days with catastrophic brain damage. And that's with midwives there. The baby might have been delivered in time had they been in hospital.

I'm afraid I'd be telling your friend that that is their choice but that you cannot be there for someone who is deliberately putting their unborn child at huge risk :(

I've never understood the appeal of even homebirth tbh; I felt more at ease each time I entered the hospital for both of mine, because I knew everything I or the baby could possibly need was just down the hall. I hope your friend comes to her senses and lets a midwife attend, or at the very least that nothing goes wrong. But I couldn't support her through this with any degree of sincerity, tbh.

@PyongyangKipperbang 'The fact that you are using the word "catch" gives it away tbh.'

Yeah I thought this as well. I used to think they plopped out lol. I had no urge to push, just contraction pain, which is apparently quite common. So the midwife had to coach me through it, it was a LOT of effort.

For FTMs blithely assuming it only goes wrong for 'unhealthy' or older mums, I suggest you watch Life and Birth on BBC iplayer. Young first time mum, fit, healthy, yoga teacher, had diligently learnt hypnobirthing and said it hadn't even occurred to her that anything could go wrong, as if you imagine a positive outcome you will have one (or words to that effect). Back to back baby, ended with Kielland forceps in theatre after a marathon labour. There was no way that baby was coming out 'naturally'. She was in tears at the end saying she felt nothing when baby was born as she was so shell-shocked and exhausted. It was really sad.

I've noticed a couple of previous posters ask but didn't spot a reply...what does her husband think of the idea? I'd be hopeful he would persuade her against it. If he has zero medical expertise and experience of delivering babies how will he cope?

What’s she like with pain op?

She might be straight into hospital when labour really kicks off

Also would social services get involved if a woman didn’t turn up for antenatal appointments?

@EverdeRose If things don't go to plan

I am yet to meet any woman who's birth went to plan. Whatever you are planning, plan for all the other likely events too.

Saying that most births go to plan simply means 'woman had baby and both are fine' it doesn't reference the varied and well timed actions required to get to that point.

You can't go along with this op.
My sister was born at home (late 1960s when it was common for second baby)
She was born with the blue with the cord around her neck and my dad was told she was dead.
Luckily a midwife managed to revive her. My dad and mum were v scarred by this.
Your friend is a selfish idiot. Birth is not about a beautiful experience for the woman; it's about delivering the baby safely and about the woman being ok too.
Please don't fold and become a cheerleader for this nonsense.

@EverdeRose If things don't go to plan

I am yet to meet any woman who's birth went to plan. Whatever you are planning, plan for all the other likely events too.

Saying that most births go to plan simply means 'woman had baby and both are fine' it doesn't reference the varied and well timed actions required to get to that point.

You can't go along with this op.
My sister was born at home (late 1960s when it was common for second baby)
She was born with the blue with the cord around her neck and my dad was told she was dead.
Luckily a midwife managed to revive her. My dad and mum were v scarred by this.
Your friend is a selfish idiot. Birth is not about a beautiful experience for the woman; it's about delivering the baby safely and about the woman being ok too.
Please don't fold and become a cheerleader for this nonsense.

What is her partner like? Is this his idea, or is he staying very quiet so far?
I suspect that this may end up with him finding out about the risks, reality and what he would actually be expected to do and refusing to be the sole medical attendant - after all, if the baby dies won't she blame him?
And if she dies, or they both die, despite him trying to save them, on his own, miles from anywhere...that would fuck him up for life.

I think you do need to separate your own experience but at the same time you are not wrong.

My placenta got stuck the first time and ended up with a surgeon rooting around trying to get it all out.... cant imagine anyones husband doing that!

However on the flip side my Gran had alot of babies (as many did back then) and after the first couple my grandad stopped the midwives and assisted himself. My gran lost one baby but not during birth. However this was back in the 60s /70s and when my gran had her last baby in the late 70s a midwife was there

I never watched obem but call the midwife put me off home births. They are not as tranquil and full of incense and candles as they make it out to be.

I think you can say to your friend that you support that it's her decision but you dont support the concept and at a minimum a midwife in the house who can step in would be alot safer but still allow her to have some control over the birth.

@MillyDilly well, arguably everything a pregnant woman does puts her baby at risk. Including having a vaginal birth in hospital - the stats on poor outcomes for babies from VBs are actually shocking. If we were really concerned with minimising the risk to babies, all women would have elective sections and attempting a VB would be seen as reckless and irresponsible.

I agree that freebirthing is irresponsible but this discussion takes on a really misogynistic tone. I think what troubles me is this. The truth is that giving birth is dangerous. It’s really dangerous. The NHS goes out of its way to prevent women from choosing to have planned Caesarian sections, which are statistically the safest kind of birth there is, because they’re expensive. Women are allowed to request them under the NICE guidelines but a lot of trusts outright refuse them and many of the ones that say they do allow them still fight women as hard as they can on it. The NHS doesn’t warn women of the risks of vaginal birth (to the woman or baby), lest women start requesting sections left right and centre. The head of the RCM complained a few years back that horror stories on Mumsnet were driving a rise in requests for sections (in other words - these bloody women are getting too informed!) The relentless pursuit of vaginal birth at any cost has, in some hospitals/trusts, (East Kent, Shropshire, Morecambe) had utterly devastating consequences. We’re told by the NHS and other sources that it’s all natural, giving birth is very safe, if you stay calm it’ll be fine.

But when women take that advice to heart - it’s all natural, your body knows what to do, women have been doing it for millenia etc - suddenly they’re irresponsible idiots ‘putting their babies at risk’. You see it on threads about home birthing too.

I just feel like women can’t win.

Your friend is probably put off by the thought of a medicalised hospital birth, and I don't entirely blame her. If you want to help your friend, I don't think that sharing frightening stories of births gone wrong would be the best way to persuade her.

AFAIK most of the free birth stuff comes from the USA, where home birth isn't really an option. She might be reassured to know that, if she has a straightforward home birth, then the midwife can be very hands off, if that's her preference. You could refer her to uk home birth websites for more information and positive birth stories.

She might also like Ina may Gaskin's books. She is very pro natural birth, but also emphasises the important role of the midwife iirc.