To be cross that DD didn’t tell me her boyfriend was trans?

[WearyandBleary]

DD who is 16 has just had a horrible breakup with her boyfriend of 2 years. In the course of this crying etc she told me he was trans I e born a girl.

Now I don’t mind whatever but I’m so embarrassed that I had loads of heart to hearts with her about sex and contraception and she never said a thing!!! I feel like an idiot. She can’t understand why it matters. (?!?)

AIBU to be cross? I thought we had a good relationship and she was always honest with me. I feel like a chump!

If a transgender man and a biological man say they are in a gay relationship, does that really mean that it changes the relationship status of two biological men?

This argument is akin to the ones I had when it was becoming legal for gay people to marry, lots and lots of heterosexual people saying that other peoples marriages would redefine theirs.

I didnt agree with that viewpoint and I dont agree with this one either.

I guess it has redefined marriage though

If you thought marriage was a lasting union between a man and a woman, which many people did, then gay marriage does redefine it

It's more a question of whether or not that new definition is acceptable

What is unacceptable about a trans man and a biological man calling their relationship a gay relationship?

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

What is unacceptable about a trans man and a biological man calling their relationship a gay relationship?

I guess it all boils down to whether you think sex and gender are the same thing.

Do you?

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

What is unacceptable about a trans man and a biological man calling their relationship a gay relationship?

The fact that it takes the word gay away from same sex attracted couples, leaving them with no word to describe their status. It masks reality.

So is it not important to you to be able to define same sex attraction?

Perhaps to be able to draft legislation that stops people discriminating on the basis of it? If you get rid of that concept you’re going to reverse all the progress we have made in terms of combatting homophobia.

I personally dont feel the need for anyone to define their relationship. What does it matter to me, or anyone, on a day to day basis, whether someone is attracted to men or women or both, or if they are married or single or dating.

If a couple chooses to define their relationship in a particular way then it doesn't impact me or my relationship at all.

Perhaps to be able to draft legislation that stops people discriminating on the basis of it? as I've said a few times now, transgender people can be gay too. However that is defined in the eyes of the law it's still a fact.

Even if a law was drafted to define homosexual relationships and included transgender people in that it wouldn't take anything away from laws protecting gay people, just open them up to include gay transgender relationships in that as well. In this instance adding another minority group to a law wouldn't take anything away from the people it originally helped, it would simply help more people.

'Even if a law was drafted to define homosexual relationships and included transgender people...'

The law regarding homosexual relationships already includes transgender people so not sure where you are coming from there.

The law is defined on sex. So if a transgender person is in a same sex relationship with another person, transgender or not, the same law will apply.

What you are doing is confusing sex with gender, as I said before.

Maybe what you are referring to is same gender relationships which, as far as I am aware, is not currently defined in law.

@Binterested

I would absolutely expect to know. This person is female in every cell of their DNA and this person cannot impregnate anyone. These are relevant facts for any boyfriend/girlfriend and consequently for the parent of a minor teenager having what sounds like a fairly serious relationship.

I would want to know because I would want to be sure my daughter understands what being trans means in this context. This person hasn't changed sex. This person (child - sorry, can't recall how old they are?) is being illegally prescribed drugs. This person is having their normal pubertal process destroyed - with implications for the rest of their life. I would want to make sure my daughter knows the facts here because my fear would be that they are being sold the line that people can be "born in the wrong body", that all this intervention is "reversible" or that it is possible to change sex. As long as they know and understand all that then fine but the chances are that they don't.

I would also want to be clear that lesbian relationships are entirely valid and do not need to be dressed up as heterosexual relationships to please anyone. Not even to please the young person who believes themselves to be male. I would worry that there is some lesbophobia at work there - and that DD could be internalising it.

At 25 I wouldn't expect to have these conversations with my daughter. At 14-16 I absolutely would. It's my job as a parent.

All of this really I also would add that I would be unhappy that my daughter might become the human support system at an age where she would not really be equipped to do so. And of course the gaslighting involved in keeping it a 'secret'

@WearyandBleary

I Have had many discussions with my dc about those things and they absolutely disagree with me. They think that men and women do have different brains and frankly that’s the end of it. This is why they think I’m a dinosaur. I used to care but now frankly I’ve given up on that one. Us oldies have lost that battle because the younger generation see it very differently. It’s not a hill I’m going to die on.

No, you shouldn't give up. Two years ago I was on the brink of giving up. My 18 yo daughter couldn't have been in camp 'be kind' more. Now, she sees it for the massive assault on women's rights that it is.

What you are doing is confusing sex with gender, as I said before.

I'm really not. I was answering the point above my post. Including transgender relationships in laws regarding discrimination against homosexual relationships does not make things worse for anyone at all, but makes it better for some.

And of course the gaslighting involved in keeping it a 'secret' partners revealing personal information about themselves, and their loved one keeping that to themselves isn't 'gaslighting' at all.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

What you are doing is confusing sex with gender, as I said before.

I'm really not. I was answering the point above my post. Including transgender relationships in laws regarding discrimination against homosexual relationships does not make things worse for anyone at all, but makes it better for some.

And of course the gaslighting involved in keeping it a 'secret' partners revealing personal information about themselves, and their loved one keeping that to themselves isn't 'gaslighting' at all.

It is impossible to draft a law in the way that you suggest.

It really isn't impossible at all. Maybe it wouldn't be in the way that you would like, but it can be done.

What you are doing is confusing sex with gender, as I said before.

'I'm really not. I was answering the point above my post. Including transgender relationships in laws regarding discrimination against homosexual relationships does not make things worse for anyone at all, but makes it better for some.'

When you talk about transgender people having homosexual relationships you reallly are confusing sex with gender.

You have yet to actually state that you believe homosexual means same sex attracted.

That's ok. You can have your opinion. I just think you should own it rather than trying to obscure it.

You have shared on this thread that you have a gay child and a transgender child. How does your gay child define homosexuality?

This might help - actual definitions of sex and gender (hint, the two are not the same thing).

For what it’s worth I fundamentally disagree with the statement that “sex is assigned at birth”, but that’s a whole other thread.

When you talk about transgender people having homosexual relationships you reallly are confusing sex with gender.

Nope, I have repeatedly stated that - however you define it- transgender people have gay relationships. Wherever your thoughts lie, whether you treat transgender people as who they were born as or who they state they are now, there are transgender people who have gay relationships. You may not believe those who say they are gay and wont refer to them as such, but that means you believe transgender people who say they are in heterosexual relationships are gay.

My gay daughter is a girl attracted to girls, therefore she is a lesbian.

I'm not trying to obscure anything, I just dont really wish to be shouted down on here, again, for my personal beliefs, which is why I'm making general statement. I've done it all on here before. I say something, someone posts back with one particular individual who did something awful, as though it's all transgender people, I post back saying that hardcore radfems who say all sorts of crap don't speak for your average feminist either so why tar everyone with the same brush, and on and on it goes.

Some people dont want a genuine debate or conversation, they want an echo chamber, and just are not willing to listen or deviate from their view, even slightly. To even say various things are wrong or unfair it starts with "well that shouldn't have happened, but......". Its so hypocritical really because that argument would never wash with someone sticking up for transgender rights.

I'm just going to step in and clarify the legalities here. You have your biological sex that is determined by your chromosomes. You have your gender that is how you perceive yourself. Then you have your legal sex which is what you are registered as.
Most people have the same for all three of these. Almost everyone will have 3 registered at birth based on 1. Transgender people will usually then apply to change 3 so that it aligns with 2.
Anything in the law that refers to "sex" is referring to your legal sex, not your biological sex. Your legal sex, much like your legal name, can be changed and is not required to remain the same as it was at birth.

What is hardcore radfem about saying that humans cannot change sex?
It doesn't matter how much an individual wishes it to be the case, they cannot.
You say posters don't want a debate. But all I've seen is you persist with the conflation of sex and gender (what the hell is gender anyway?).
There isn't really much to debate to be honest. There is nothing that you could say that will sway my view and I doubt there is anything anyone on here could say to sway you from your belief that twaw and tmam or people can be who they want to be regardless of the impact on others.
You say your daughter's girlfriend is a biological male who presents with a female identity. Out of interest, what does that female identity look like? Wearing lippy with long hair, dresses/blouses etc or jeans/jumpers and tees? Interested to know.

But that change is still a legal fiction. You can be legally a woman if you were born a man, you may have surgery to change parts of your body to resemble a woman’s body. But you remain biologically a man. It’s is intrinsic.

What is hardcore radfem about saying that humans cannot change sex? I didnt say that was hardcore radfem at all.

But all I've seen is you persist with the conflation of sex and gender I haven't, I was explaining that whatever views anyone has, transgender people have gay relationships.

people can be who they want to be regardless of the impact on others. you're assuming this is my view.

My view is somewhere in the middle of both extremes of the argument, actually.

Some people dont want a genuine debate or conversation, they want an echo chamber, and just are not willing to listen or deviate from their view, even slightly.

That’s been my experience 9 times out of 10 when trying to express my opinion on here about trans rights tbh, I genuinely don’t feel that posters who have even slightly different views to the majority are welcome on the feminist boards at all. As such, I rarely post on them. People aren’t looking for a debate, they’re looking for people who agree with them and share their outrage.

For what it’s worth, I don’t think that a woman in a relationship with a trans man is gay or bi at all, I’m a lesbian and I would never date a trans man because I’m not attracted to men and anyone who appears to be a man or has a male body, natural or surgical, I would date a post op trans woman though if she “passed” as a woman. I don’t see how that would make me any less a lesbian. No one orders DNA tests from people they date, so if you were in a relationship with a trans man and were attracted to them, then found out they’re trans according some on here that means you’re now bisexual are therefore are attracted to women? Surely people see how having such rigid views on sexuality doesn’t really work.

You say you would date a post op trans woman if she "passed" as a woman- what does this mean ?Do you mean you would date her if she was feminine enough in appearance?Surely if a person was born male, they would just be 'modifying' parts their bodies to conform to the female form ie breasts and the removal of male genitalia, but would still be male. Would you date a trans woman who appeared feminine but still had a penis, or would you this be too male presenting?

Anything in the law that refers to "sex" is referring to your legal sex, not your biological sex. Your legal sex, much like your legal name, can be changed and is not required to remain the same as it was at birth

Not quite. The Equality Act has sex as a protected characteristic and since it separately references gender reassignment we can infer that sex means biological sex and this is protected in its own right. The Equality Act doesn't spell it out because no one really anticipated the shitshow of men having absolutely no medical intervention or surgery and claiming to be women. But it's pretty clear that the protected characteristic of sex is actually supposed to protect biological sex and the protected characteristic of gender reassignment is supposed to protect gender reassignment.

The fact that Stonewall campaigned to remove the "single sex exemption" from the Equality Act tells you that they know this very well and they want to undermine this distinction. They want sex to be eradicated as a basis for protection and for it to be only on identity or gender. But so far they have not succeeded so the law remains as the Equality Act sets out and it remains possible to exclude people from single sex spaces on the basis that they are not biologically that sex. The fact that Stonewall continue to misinform the public about what the law says is something the Charity Commission ought to be interested in imho.

@Fanthorpe I wonder whether you consider all women who use their married name as "legal fiction" and remind them that it's not the same they were born with and so not their real name. It's literally the same thing from a legal standpoint.

@Binterested

Anything in the law that refers to "sex" is referring to your legal sex, not your biological sex. Your legal sex, much like your legal name, can be changed and is not required to remain the same as it was at birth

Not quite. The Equality Act has sex as a protected characteristic and since it separately references gender reassignment we can infer that sex means biological sex and this is protected in its own right. The Equality Act doesn't spell it out because no one really anticipated the shitshow of men having absolutely no medical intervention or surgery and claiming to be women. But it's pretty clear that the protected characteristic of sex is actually supposed to protect biological sex and the protected characteristic of gender reassignment is supposed to protect gender reassignment.

The fact that Stonewall campaigned to remove the "single sex exemption" from the Equality Act tells you that they know this very well and they want to undermine this distinction. They want sex to be eradicated as a basis for protection and for it to be only on identity or gender. But so far they have not succeeded so the law remains as the Equality Act sets out and it remains possible to exclude people from single sex spaces on the basis that they are not biologically that sex. The fact that Stonewall continue to misinform the public about what the law says is something the Charity Commission ought to be interested in imho.

This is entirely correct.