Is this Midwife out of line?

[SistineScreamer]

Curious as to what others would think. My daughter just had her first DC yesterday. She had an elective section and is still in hospital. My daughter is young, she’s 24, Not married (and has no intention to) but been with her DP since they were 16. She’s had some MH issues, stemmed from ex husband of mine. This is all noted in her file and is a manageable, she’s had to come off her medication during the pregnancy because of risks to the baby but she was more than willing to do this. She’s in a private room and not on a ward. All this information is important as I assume this is why she was treated the way she was.

She rang me 30 minutes ago in tears. Telling me one of the midwives assigned to her has been horrible to her. We’ll call her Midwife A.

All this is what she says happened - First, DD had baby in a onsie and bib, midwife A came in and commented that the bib was too big for baby, took baby out of DD’s arms and removed the bib. Even if the bib was too big why completely undermine her like that? Next, DD brought wipes for her face, body etc they were baby brand water wipes as her skin is overly sensitive to anything else. Midwife proceeded to lecture DD that these were wrong and cotton buds must be used with water instead, proceeded to bin wipes then leave the room.

Half an hour later Midwife A came back in to ask DD about her feeding choices. DD was sexually assaulted and does not feel comfortable breastfeeding, her choice. Midwife proceeded to give her the breast is best talk, asking why she wouldn’t consider breastfeeding, basically making her feel like shit for picking formula. DD mentioned she’d purchased a perfect prep machine for the formula (you know the ones that give the perfect shot of hot water at night so you don’t have to faff about with the kettle?) this woman nodded, left the room and came back 15 minutes later with a print out of the perfect prep machine....asking DD to confirm if this was what she was talking about. Nodding and tutting. What the fuck? Even if she wanted to know what DD was talking about, why print it out and bring it to her? Why not look it up herself?

Next issue came with the drip that was in DD’s hand, it was ripping the skin, physically pulling up the skin. She asked Midwife A if she could take it out or change it, to be told no nothing could be done. She’d just have to suck it up. An hour after she was told this another midwife came in, Midwife B, she begged midwife B to take it out and showed her what it was doing to her hand. Midwife B promptly took it out stating that there was no problem. Midwife A came back for her checks, asked DD what happened to the drop. DD explained that midwife B took it out, midwife A mumbled something about how that couldn’t be right and she’d have to check that ‘story’ right away.

DD is still vulnerable after birth, can’t move yet because of the catheter and has to be changed by this woman who she feels uncomfortable with and intimidated by. This woman has to handle her naked, change her sheets and I feel from what she’s saying it’s making her MH worse. She says she feels like Midwife A is talking about her with the other midwife (not B) on duty who she seems friendly with, shared looks, little smirks, off comments.

The looks and such could be DD’s dislike for this midwife raring up. But the rest, is this normal! I feel like she’s over stepped the mark and made my child feel low because of her age and choices. Should we ignore this?

Funnily enough I don't need my mummy to come and fight my battles for me

So anyone who can't advocate for themselves at all times simply doesn't matter?

The bridge is thataway mate ====>

I hope your DD is ok OP. Is there a post natal support service she can use? Friends of mine with MH issues have been kept under close contact with the special post natal team, so please check if there is one near you as they've been fab.

I'm Sorry your DD has had a hard time at the start of motherhood. FWIW, I had a similar experience, but being mid thirties and confident of myself, I just smiled and nodded and ignored their advice.

Funnily enough, I was determined to breastfeed, and after struggling with the first few feeds my MW tried to convince me to give formula. She was really pushy about it, and rather than offering support with feeding techniques, positioning, tongue tie etc, kept pushing a bottle and formula. I just told her to leave me alone and turned to google for help.

So your DD is not alone in having an annoying midwife. I am glad you're happy to be there and support her - I'm sure it means a lot to her that you are there. And congratulations on your new GC!

I fear for your reading comprehension skills, as well as your complete lack of understanding of mental health issues, or empathy now. Assuming you are actually a genuine poster acting in good faith.

You do realise this situation has no bearing on how OP's DD will cope with "The Dreaded Playground" don't you, @rwoollsey?

You must realise this given how different the situations are so why bring it up?

Why are you encouraging the idea that people with mental illness shouldn't accept help during times of vulnerability and crisis?

In what way was the bib issue justified? She explained it was just for feeding

OP has already explained that yes she did say the wipes were for her not the baby she still threw them away "just in case" she used them on the baby

Where exactly is "best practice" here? You are never supposed to touch patients property unless you need to and you can't throw their possessions away because YOU disagree with their presence

I'm all for improving our breastfeeding rates but not at the expense of the mental health of new mums. This "the ends justify the means" attitude from HCPs is wrong.

The way your DD has been treated is appalling and I hope she is home soon.

I'm all for improving our breastfeeding rates but not at the expense of the mental health of new mums. This "the ends justify the means" attitude from HCPs is wrong.

Yeah same, the current approach obviously isn't working anyway as the BF rates here are terrible. Instead of figuring out why or putting in place enough support, the woman just gets berated.

The issue is the OPs daughter should be able to speak out, not rely on her mummy to come and handle the mean midwife for her.

Sometimes in life we are simply not able to be assertive as we normally would be. I'm surprised you haven't figured that out yet.

Failing that the partner should be able to speak up in order to protect his partner who has just given birth and receiving, in their view sub standard care.

So she married a wet lettuce, it happens.

I would definitely complain. I have been in a similar situation. This is my experience below. If It was my first I probably would have thought it was a normal experience, as it was my second I wasn't having any of it. I made a complaint with my second child. The experience between my two child was enormous.

My firsts birth was a good experience and everyone was so lovely. My second- awful birth, I had a category one csection. So no epidural, when I came around I was in agony, I couldn't walk or move. As soon as the catheter was out they were expecting me to be up and down (only pain relief was paracetamol). I breastfed my first for over a year but my second was really struggling to latch and feed, a midwife 'supported me' at 2am, stood there and watched me struggling to get out of bed whilst baby was crying and then pushing my little ones face into my breast whilst she was screaming(that high pitched hysterical scream) for 10minutes. I flipped and cried and reported her there and then. turns out (2 years later after several visits to lactation consultants) she was tongue tied with a very poor latch. No idea how I fed her until 2.5 years old! X

OP hope you and yr dd (and baby and dp) are all going home today, or home already. I hope it all goes well and she has a happy time learning to become a mummy.

rwoollsey would you mind awfully boiling your head please.

Nothing like a woman putting down other women

There is plenty of internalised misogyny on show on MN at times.

However I believe we also have way more men posting/posing as women than in ye olden dayes. I have long since given up making an assumption either way about any one poster.

If I ever work out a surefire way to tell the difference when it matters then I'll post it

@rwoollsey you may be able to stand up for yourself, but it appears you lack any sort of empathy or possibly any sort of brain.

@Billyjoearmstrong I agree I think that's why they're now telling mothers that they can't make up a days worth of bottles and store too. I've not heard of any major issues with this and it's what I did - I bf dd till she was almost 10 months then my milk dried due to medical condition and had to ff. I hated it found it a total pita! But appreciate that's my opinion, not fact. But one thing i did as I say was to make all bottles up for the day the evening before and quickly cooled and stored in fridge. Never had a problem doing this.

Perfect prep is much more recent and I don't feel qualified to comment really, I just think it sounds yet more faff! I found it relatively quick to get bottle from fridge and heat up by putting bottle in a jug of freshly boiled water to heat it up, a jug I bought new and kept for just this purpose until dd was off ff. Never took more than 2-3 mins how long does perfect prep take?

@rwoollsey wtf?! There are times (like immediately post partum) and situations/conditions (being an abuse survivor, being mentally ill) that mean that even adults aren’t able to advocate for themselves

As stated I have mental illness myself, generally I’m a bolshy cow but there have certainly been as a result of my health issues, times when I simply don’t have the strength/resources to stand up for myself.

This is a major issue for the mentally ill as it means nasty, uncaring people like this midwife think of us as easy targets! We are generally speaking as a sector the least likely to complain, the least likely to stand up for ourselves as we get too anxious and stressed or our cognitive abilities are affected by our illness.

Mental illness when severe enough to incapacitate is a disability and as such is a protected characteristic, yet we are STILL in 2020 despite many campaigns and publicity that has attempted to address this, discriminated against.

By the nhs

By employers/potential employers

By landlords/mortgage companies

By shops and businesses

By charities

The evidence of this prejudice is prevalent and unashamed on this thread

The bib issue was justified please do point to the research that supports this - we’re all ears!

The perfect prep machine is known to not be recommended as it doesn't heat the water up enough I’m no expert on this area but LOTS of discussion and links on thread refuting this if you bothered to read!

The wipes, did the daughter even say they were for her? Can't expect the midwife to be psychic that the adult was going to only use baby wipes on themselves not the baby (esp considering the previous)

1 - the midwife could have asked
2 - even if they were for the baby they’re hardly a major risk!
3 - regardless of guidelines she has NO right to throw away an item the ops Dd bought! At the very MOST she could have told her not to use them for the baby while in hospital/until baby older - they keep they don’t go off!

Midwives are trained to 'push' BF. She was acting as she should have NO they are supposed to ENCOURAGE - not BULLY vulnerable, ill, post partum women! Bf is preferable for many reasons BUT it is a very personal decision and if the midwife had actually been a competent and capable professional she’d have already read the notes and known why the woman had chosen NOT to bf.

OPs daughter has shown poor judgement in the first few hours/days after giving birth did she fuck!!!

it's a midwifes job to protect the baby and the child WRONG a midwifes job is to support and care for BOTH the mother and the child at this time. They are supposed to be aware of the mothers medical and other relevant history and tailor care accordingly. That’s what ANY good nurse/hcp should do, but having worked with midwives myself I can assure you their focus is very much supposed to be on mother as well as baby with neither taking precedence.

OPs daughters partner is also too timid to speak out its a bit of a poor show. that’s just fucking insulting. You have zero compassion or empathy for a vulnerable and ILL young woman!

You don’t sound like an “empowered woman” at all, you sound like something else entirely!

Wondering if you’re “the” or even just “a” midwife? I sincerely hope not, I hope you don’t deal with vulnerable people in any way to be honest.

And actually to a degree the ops dd DID stand up for herself - she asked said midwife to leave REPEATEDLY and the midwife refused! That’s completely outrageous and unacceptable behaviour by the midwife! That’s bullying!

And please don’t refer to someone as “a karen” it’s a pathetic, misogynistic, ageist load of bollocks!!

@SistineScreamer You are amazing. I hope your daughter and her baby are doing ok today and this awful experience doesn't tarnish your DD's memories of her first few days of motherhood. I too have struggled with MH and I wish my DM had been in my corner like you are.

I have 3 kids and breastfed them all for extended periods so please don't think that horrible nurse represents all breastfeeders. She was interested in following her own agenda at any cost. She certainly didn't seem to have the best interests of your daughter and her baby at heart. Thankfully they had you to advocate for them.

@Graphista official guidance would tell you you were in the wrong for pre making bottles and popping them in the fridge now. But the reality is that making each one fresh which takes over 20 minutes isn't realistic when you are feeding on demand and they're screaming, so same as your method, PP offers an alternative. It is ridiculously quick and convinient to be fair. You add the powder to your bottle, pop it on the machine, press a button and it dispenses the hot shot straight away, swirl the bottle around, press another button (you set it to the amount of Oz you need) and it dispenses the right amount of water- which has been filtered. Takes hardly any time, probably a minute or so? I can see how because there isn't evidence to definitively prove they are safe MWs can't recommend them, but as there also isn't any saying they arent, they should just not mention them rather than say they're dangerous, because they arent.

@Graphista I had my first 18 years ago. The advice then was to make up a days worth of bottles at a time, quickly cool them and store in the fridge for up to 24 hours.

Pp isn’t a faff at all though. Hungry baby to bottle in mouth in a few mins. I had one plugged in next to the bed.

I hate the way anything to do with FF is demonised. For what it’s worth, I tried to breastfeed my two and ended up starving them both. They continued to lose weight until I gave them formula. I’m pregnant again and will FF from birth this time as I know my body can’t BFit and my mind certainly can’t take it.

@rwoollsey

You might think you’re standing up for yourself and acting in the superior way, but really, you’re not.

It takes a village to raise a child from day one, and women should take all the support they can get. Without people like you shaming those who don’t.

I have no idea why @MNHQ deleted my comment. Frankly @rwoollsey has written many disgraceful, anti-female and not in the spirit comments and sounds frankly jealous of ops DD.
Ridiculous to chuck my comment pointing out how derogatory she was being.

[quote Graphista]@Billyjoearmstrong I agree I think that's why they're now telling mothers that they can't make up a days worth of bottles and store too. I've not heard of any major issues with this and it's what I did - I bf dd till she was almost 10 months then my milk dried due to medical condition and had to ff. I hated it found it a total pita! But appreciate that's my opinion, not fact. But one thing i did as I say was to make all bottles up for the day the evening before and quickly cooled and stored in fridge. Never had a problem doing this.

Perfect prep is much more recent and I don't feel qualified to comment really, I just think it sounds yet more faff! I found it relatively quick to get bottle from fridge and heat up by putting bottle in a jug of freshly boiled water to heat it up, a jug I bought new and kept for just this purpose until dd was off ff. Never took more than 2-3 mins how long does perfect prep take?

@rwoollsey wtf?! There are times (like immediately post partum) and situations/conditions (being an abuse survivor, being mentally ill) that mean that even adults aren’t able to advocate for themselves

As stated I have mental illness myself, generally I’m a bolshy cow but there have certainly been as a result of my health issues, times when I simply don’t have the strength/resources to stand up for myself.

This is a major issue for the mentally ill as it means nasty, uncaring people like this midwife think of us as easy targets! We are generally speaking as a sector the least likely to complain, the least likely to stand up for ourselves as we get too anxious and stressed or our cognitive abilities are affected by our illness.

Mental illness when severe enough to incapacitate is a disability and as such is a protected characteristic, yet we are STILL in 2020 despite many campaigns and publicity that has attempted to address this, discriminated against.

By the nhs

By employers/potential employers

By landlords/mortgage companies

By shops and businesses

By charities

The evidence of this prejudice is prevalent and unashamed on this thread

The bib issue was justified please do point to the research that supports this - we’re all ears!

The perfect prep machine is known to not be recommended as it doesn't heat the water up enough I’m no expert on this area but LOTS of discussion and links on thread refuting this if you bothered to read!

The wipes, did the daughter even say they were for her? Can't expect the midwife to be psychic that the adult was going to only use baby wipes on themselves not the baby (esp considering the previous)

1 - the midwife could have asked
2 - even if they were for the baby they’re hardly a major risk!
3 - regardless of guidelines she has NO right to throw away an item the ops Dd bought! At the very MOST she could have told her not to use them for the baby while in hospital/until baby older - they keep they don’t go off!

Midwives are trained to 'push' BF. She was acting as she should have NO they are supposed to ENCOURAGE - not BULLY vulnerable, ill, post partum women! Bf is preferable for many reasons BUT it is a very personal decision and if the midwife had actually been a competent and capable professional she’d have already read the notes and known why the woman had chosen NOT to bf.

OPs daughter has shown poor judgement in the first few hours/days after giving birth did she fuck!!!

it's a midwifes job to protect the baby and the child WRONG a midwifes job is to support and care for BOTH the mother and the child at this time. They are supposed to be aware of the mothers medical and other relevant history and tailor care accordingly. That’s what ANY good nurse/hcp should do, but having worked with midwives myself I can assure you their focus is very much supposed to be on mother as well as baby with neither taking precedence.

OPs daughters partner is also too timid to speak out its a bit of a poor show. that’s just fucking insulting. You have zero compassion or empathy for a vulnerable and ILL young woman!

You don’t sound like an “empowered woman” at all, you sound like something else entirely!

Wondering if you’re “the” or even just “a” midwife? I sincerely hope not, I hope you don’t deal with vulnerable people in any way to be honest.

And actually to a degree the ops dd DID stand up for herself - she asked said midwife to leave REPEATEDLY and the midwife refused! That’s completely outrageous and unacceptable behaviour by the midwife! That’s bullying!

And please don’t refer to someone as “a karen” it’s a pathetic, misogynistic, ageist load of bollocks!! [/quote]
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

Yes the midwife was out of line.

I would just ignore and get your dd out of there ASAP. But hopefully complaining gets you somewhere.

I always wonder why they recommend mothers with mh issues stay in longer?

I stayed in one night with my first and didn’t sleep a wink, if I’d stayed any longer I would have been in a terrible state. I understand why it might help if the mother is single with no support, but if they have a supportive partner or family -home is best imo!

Congratulations though and I hope your dd and gdc are doing well.

The other thing I don't understand is that if you can take a baby swimming from birth why are wipes worse than a chlorinated pool?

And yes while sakazakii exists it does seem like there is this attitude that we shouldn't do anything to make FF easier. It isn't possible to both feed on demand and do a faffy letting the kettle boil and cool process each time you make a bottle. I'd like to see more mums empowered to BF bit this sort of thing doesn't help.

Op I mean this kindly and with respect - From the way you describe your daughter, she sounds extremely fragile. (Did she just sit there and say nothing when the midwife threw the wipes away?)

Are you sure she is strong & stable enough to have a child? As I said, I mean this with respect and I'm only going on your own description of her.
As you know, as parents, we need to be able to defend ourselves and 'protect our young' as it were. Can she do this?

Also, where was Father whilst this was happening? You say they've been together for years, so was he not there? I'm not sure of the Covid rules in labour wards. What was his take on it all?

All I'm saying is that when I had my child, when the Midwife was awful to me (and she really, really was! Believe me! I'm getting flashbacks reading this!), if I'd rang my mum about it, she'd be gently telling me off for not defending myself and my baby!! Then again, she's not the compassionate type, but still...