Is this Midwife out of line?

[SistineScreamer]

Curious as to what others would think. My daughter just had her first DC yesterday. She had an elective section and is still in hospital. My daughter is young, she’s 24, Not married (and has no intention to) but been with her DP since they were 16. She’s had some MH issues, stemmed from ex husband of mine. This is all noted in her file and is a manageable, she’s had to come off her medication during the pregnancy because of risks to the baby but she was more than willing to do this. She’s in a private room and not on a ward. All this information is important as I assume this is why she was treated the way she was.

She rang me 30 minutes ago in tears. Telling me one of the midwives assigned to her has been horrible to her. We’ll call her Midwife A.

All this is what she says happened - First, DD had baby in a onsie and bib, midwife A came in and commented that the bib was too big for baby, took baby out of DD’s arms and removed the bib. Even if the bib was too big why completely undermine her like that? Next, DD brought wipes for her face, body etc they were baby brand water wipes as her skin is overly sensitive to anything else. Midwife proceeded to lecture DD that these were wrong and cotton buds must be used with water instead, proceeded to bin wipes then leave the room.

Half an hour later Midwife A came back in to ask DD about her feeding choices. DD was sexually assaulted and does not feel comfortable breastfeeding, her choice. Midwife proceeded to give her the breast is best talk, asking why she wouldn’t consider breastfeeding, basically making her feel like shit for picking formula. DD mentioned she’d purchased a perfect prep machine for the formula (you know the ones that give the perfect shot of hot water at night so you don’t have to faff about with the kettle?) this woman nodded, left the room and came back 15 minutes later with a print out of the perfect prep machine....asking DD to confirm if this was what she was talking about. Nodding and tutting. What the fuck? Even if she wanted to know what DD was talking about, why print it out and bring it to her? Why not look it up herself?

Next issue came with the drip that was in DD’s hand, it was ripping the skin, physically pulling up the skin. She asked Midwife A if she could take it out or change it, to be told no nothing could be done. She’d just have to suck it up. An hour after she was told this another midwife came in, Midwife B, she begged midwife B to take it out and showed her what it was doing to her hand. Midwife B promptly took it out stating that there was no problem. Midwife A came back for her checks, asked DD what happened to the drop. DD explained that midwife B took it out, midwife A mumbled something about how that couldn’t be right and she’d have to check that ‘story’ right away.

DD is still vulnerable after birth, can’t move yet because of the catheter and has to be changed by this woman who she feels uncomfortable with and intimidated by. This woman has to handle her naked, change her sheets and I feel from what she’s saying it’s making her MH worse. She says she feels like Midwife A is talking about her with the other midwife (not B) on duty who she seems friendly with, shared looks, little smirks, off comments.

The looks and such could be DD’s dislike for this midwife raring up. But the rest, is this normal! I feel like she’s over stepped the mark and made my child feel low because of her age and choices. Should we ignore this?

OP this is NOT ok!

FWIW I recently became a mum, mid/late twenties, married (to a Dr at the hospital) and shortly before birth was admitted to hospital due to very ill health (I’m really bad at pregnancy) I cried like an 8 year old and begged my DH/DM not to leave me when visiting time ended because the night midwife was ‘a bit short’ with me and I just didn’t feel comfortable with her.

I’ve never ever felt like that. I’m usually a very ‘get on with it’ person who isn’t daunted by much. It’s the most vulnerable and sensitive time in a woman’s life and these professionals should know that and behave accordingly. Not to mention with covid going on, being alone and scared. It’s disgusting.

Luckily the midwife in my story was much nicer once visitors cleared out and I was fine. Doesn’t change anything though and the thought of a woman feeling judged for ‘not being married’ on a labour ward nowadays makes me sick!!

[quote Billyjoearmstrong]@PanamaPattie imho, there are people who hate anything that makes formula feeding easier and more convenient. As I said upthread the problems come from people not using and maintaining the machines correctly.[/quote]
Thats definitely not me, I'm the parent that takes the easiest route everytime 🤣. However, as a professional my personal preferences do not count, I am there to facilitate safety and give up to date information. It's not a formula vs breastfeeding issue at all.

@steamboatwilly123 I get you have to give the current guidance but the PP stuff is thrown down propels thirst after just 1 study??!!!

It was brought up with me several times and I never actually told anyone I was planning to use one!! It's like the NHS have to bash them hard

The same isn't said for safe sleeping guidelines. Yes they are mentioned but not the nth degree and every nit picking details. For example not one person mention cot bumpers or sleepyheads by name and yet they are a TOTAL no no and children have actually died.... seems perverse to me. All the guidance talked about is an empty cot etc. No nit pick detail slating actual products in the same way.

No child has died from use of a PP. Some have apparently been ill but it has never been proven.

I had amazing MW and the best HV. I won't say a word against them. But I do feel a bashing obsession against the PP machine.

No child has died from use of a PP (unlike bumpers and sleep positioners) - that was meant to say. Otherwise my point my be misinterpreted

I think that's just proving the point to be honest. There is zero evidence that PPs are harmful. In regards to safe sleeping etc the guidance acknowledges that some may choose to co-sleep and how to make it safer, even though it does increase the risk of SIDS, because it's acknowledged that people do it- best they do it safely. No one needs a midwife ranting on about a machine which makes life easier and the 'evidence' against is actually not substantiated, instead of actually supporting and helping women. And plenty throw their personal opinion about (or what they're told to say re breast feeding), as this thread demonstrates nicely. When I had my debrief it was very defensive, not expecting any changes to be made obviously off the back of me, but plenty of women have similar experiences and it's always dismissed, never acknowledged.

Well done for asserting yourself, and yes make a formal complaint. No one should have to justify their decision whether to breast or formula feed, and your daughter was being harangued , its no wonder she swore

[quote PrayingandHoping]@steamboatwilly123 I get you have to give the current guidance but the PP stuff is thrown down propels thirst after just 1 study??!!!

It was brought up with me several times and I never actually told anyone I was planning to use one!! It's like the NHS have to bash them hard

The same isn't said for safe sleeping guidelines. Yes they are mentioned but not the nth degree and every nit picking details. For example not one person mention cot bumpers or sleepyheads by name and yet they are a TOTAL no no and children have actually died.... seems perverse to me. All the guidance talked about is an empty cot etc. No nit pick detail slating actual products in the same way.

No child has died from use of a PP. Some have apparently been ill but it has never been proven.

I had amazing MW and the best HV. I won't say a word against them. But I do feel a bashing obsession against the PP machine. [/quote]
Yes I do agree that they have been demonised over the past few years and like I said we are all aware of how popular they are, so the majority of midwives would want some structure over the advice we give about them. Many will tell women to make sure the pipes are clean and to use it correctly etc, but you are potentially putting your job on the line doing this if anything was to happen. It's really difficult.

This midwife sounds rude but she isn't wrong for her concerns.

Also you need to empower your daughter to stand up for herself. Tbh it's not a great sign a grown woman who has just had a baby needs their mum to step in and save them from the mean midwife.

Are you going to be the one standing up for your grandchild at parents evenings, or with a school bully?

I agree that there is an agenda against the PP because they make bottle feeding even easier.

I used one because the guidelines around using freshly boiled water and waiting for it to cool was absolutely impractical for a screaming newborn who couldn’t wait for the bottle to cool (and who I wouldn’t want to leave in distress for that length of time anyway). Mine never went mouldy, I cleaned it and changed the filter religiously as instructed.

It would be great if midwives could advise on how to use them safely, but I imagine it’ll never happen regardless of the evidence that will come through from future studies, as the powers that be would shit themselves at the thought of educating on anything that would take the emphasis off breastfeeding.

rwoollsey RTFT instead of posting spitefully based on ignorance.

exactly which of her concerns were justified @rwoollsey?

Tbh it's not a great sign a grown woman who has just had a baby needs their mum to step in and save them from the mean midwife.

Have a heart, she's just after having a baby, by c-section, she has a history of trauma/abuse and has been managing off her meds while she was pregnant. Not while she is in pain, she's been nagged and got at my the midwife.
She has enough going on and needs support now. TG her mother is able to step in and advocate for her when her partner isn't able to.

Oh my word. Taking away the horrors of the midwives and I'm surprised DS survived infancy.

Formula at 8 weeks - filled 6 sterilized bottles with boiling water, refrigerated and added formula and one ounce of boiled water (like the NCT pump lady and former A&E nurse told me).
Cot bumpers and toys - stopped the baby bumping into hard cot bars.
Controlled crying.
Slept (or not) in cot in nursery not our room from day one
Started weaning at 14 weeks - on Dr's advice

He's 6ft and about to start a PhD.

@rwoollsey

This midwife sounds rude but she isn't wrong for her concerns.

Also you need to empower your daughter to stand up for herself. Tbh it's not a great sign a grown woman who has just had a baby needs their mum to step in and save them from the mean midwife.

Are you going to be the one standing up for your grandchild at parents evenings, or with a school bully?

Do you mean to be such a bitch So rude?

Tbh it's not a great sign a grown woman who has just had a baby needs their mum to step in and save them from the mean midwife.

Every day on mumsnet I'm surprised by just how shitty some people can be. 'Women, it doesn't matter if you are in pain, or shocked, or frightened, or exhausted. Just stand up for yourselves'.

Is it just mothers of newborns who are pathetic if they don't feel well enough to stand up for themselves? Or does that extend to people who are ill as well? What about the elderly? Are all those elderly people in nursing homes feeble as well because they might need a younger family member to be their spokesperson?

Her references to your daughter being "emotional" are fucking ridiculous EVERYONE gets emotional after having a baby

Is she even a midwife? I think she needs retraining

Complain via the Nursing, Midwifery council (NMC) your points need to be on point. So say for example if she’s pushing your dd to breastfeed - find the relevant section the midwife did not adhere to and explain where and how the midwife went against rules and regs and the implications for your daughter. If that makes sense, otherwise they may rule your complaint out by saying well she is meant to encourage breastfeeding and that’s what she was trying to do...

Feel free to ask any questions as I’ve worked in those types of fields before

Good luck

@rwoollsey

Do you feel like an empowered woman? Because you just come across like an absolute knob who I wouldn’t pay any attention to.

@myrtleWilson

exactly which of her concerns were justified *@rwoollsey*?

The bib issue was justified

The perfect prep machine is known to not be recommended as it doesn't heat the water up enough

The wipes, did the daughter even say they were for her? Can't expect the midwife to be psychic that the adult was going to only use baby wipes on themselves not the baby (esp considering the previous)

Midwives are trained to 'push' BF. She was acting as she should have

Again she might have said these things rudely but at the end of the day the OPs daughter has shown poor judgement in the first few hours/days after giving birth and it's a midwifes job to protect the baby and the child. If the OPs daughters partner is also too timid to speak out its a bit of a poor show.

@rwoollsey
bibs are fine as long as baby is attended to,
wipes, the MW didn't ask who they were for, just threw them in the bin,
BF - the MW didn't take her response into consideration, nor had she read her notes.
The PP machine is fine but could have been handled better - I'd give her 0.5 out of 4 in terms of reasonable-ness of substance before we even get onto manner of delivery...

Your attitudes to MH issues are vile, rwoollsey, you appear to lack empathy and if you think you’re empowered but also accept that it’s ok for a HCP to take and throw away a patient’s belongings, then you’re deluded too.

I hope one day you find a better way to navigate the world than to deliberately kick people when they’re down.

did the daughter even say they were for her?

Did the midwife ask?

Midwives are trained to 'push' BF. She was acting as she should have

Well considering the percentage breastfed in the UK they are pretty bad at it so how about at least reading her patient's notes before lecturing her for zero benefit?

at the end of the day the OPs daughter has shown poor judgement in the first few hours/days after giving birth

Well ignoring the minor detail that you don't need midwifery training to know that the immediate time after birth is a hormonal big dipper, I'm fascinated to know what exactly is bad judgement by a woman using water based wipes for her own hygiene, choosing to bottle feed or even using bibs during feeding (and I checked, they are on our local hospital's kit list as well).

I find it fascinating, that when it comes to women experiencing poor health care the principle of "victim blaming is not acceptable" goes by the board. Women are expected to smile and tolerate anything.

@Tolleshunt

Your attitudes to MH issues are vile, rwoollsey, you appear to lack empathy and if you think you’re empowered but also accept that it’s ok for a HCP to take and throw away a patient’s belongings, then you’re deluded too.

I hope one day you find a better way to navigate the world than to deliberately kick people when they’re down.

Who is kicking anyone when they're down?

The OP seems over bearing at best tbh and if their adult daughter who is now responsible for her own child can't fight her own battles lord help them going forwards...

@C8H10N4O2

did the daughter even say they were for her?

Did the midwife ask?

Midwives are trained to 'push' BF. She was acting as she should have

Well considering the percentage breastfed in the UK they are pretty bad at it so how about at least reading her patient's notes before lecturing her for zero benefit?

at the end of the day the OPs daughter has shown poor judgement in the first few hours/days after giving birth

Well ignoring the minor detail that you don't need midwifery training to know that the immediate time after birth is a hormonal big dipper, I'm fascinated to know what exactly is bad judgement by a woman using water based wipes for her own hygiene, choosing to bottle feed or even using bibs during feeding (and I checked, they are on our local hospital's kit list as well).

I find it fascinating, that when it comes to women experiencing poor health care the principle of "victim blaming is not acceptable" goes by the board. Women are expected to smile and tolerate anything.

Who said anything about smiling and tolerating anything?

The issue is the OPs daughter should be able to speak out, not rely on her mummy to come and handle the mean midwife for her.
Failing that the partner should be able to speak up in order to protect his partner who has just given birth and receiving, in their view sub standard care.

The OP wasn't there to witness any of this, so it just looks to pathetic to come running in to moan on behalf of your adult child when you have no idea the context of the comments, or even if they were said at all.