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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to hate what Brexiters have done

542 replies

mrsmootoo · 01/07/2020 08:39

I know this has been done before, but knowing that we are now likely on course for a No Deal Brexit in the midst of a pandemic I am so angry and upset about what Brexiters voted for. I'll forgive any who were conned and now think better of it, but I cannot get over the loss of Freedom of Movement to live and work in the EU - not so much for me, but for my children - and the way the UK is sliding in international standing economically and in attracting doctors, nurses, scientists etc. (I know from before that Leavers don't care what I think, but just had to post).

OP posts:
Cattenberg · 03/07/2020 12:01

We have never had a referendum on PR! We had a referendum on the alternative vote system, which is NOT a form of PR. The Lib-Dems were completely outmanoeuvred here and should never have agreed to this compromise. It was one of the worst mistakes they ever made.

And people really should have found out what the AV system was before voting.

Peregrina · 03/07/2020 12:10

Agreed there Cattenberg. As soon as Cameron offered the AV the LibDems should have said 'forget it, our agreement is off' and let him govern with a minority.

workercovid · 03/07/2020 12:17

@Itinerary how are you feeling about the 3 million plus people and their dependents, Boris is welcoming to the UK?

Alsohuman · 03/07/2020 12:25

@Peregrina

Agreed there Cattenberg. As soon as Cameron offered the AV the LibDems should have said 'forget it, our agreement is off' and let him govern with a minority.
So very true. What a world of pain would have been avoided. No austerity. No referendum.
BaileysforBreakfast · 03/07/2020 13:09

Andante In 2011 there was a referendum on this in which 67.90% voted to keep the status quo.
Except we didn't.

Andante57 · 03/07/2020 13:38

Ok so it was for the AV.
Do you think AV would be preferable to the present system?

XingMing · 03/07/2020 13:54

In 1975, Alsohuman, you voted to stay within the European Economic Community. So did I.

If it had remained the EEC, I would not have voted to leave in 2016. The second referendum should have been held on the ECT/Lisbon in 1992.

thegcatsmother · 03/07/2020 14:29

They’ve announced a 750-billion Euro bailout fund for the bloc. Its confirmed that 500 billion would be given as grants to help Europe's struggling economies recover from COVID-19. An additional 250 billion will be available in loans. It's all part of a 1.85 trillion euro package.

It's been announced, but they will have to raise the money somewhere, and there are member states that are digging their heels in about grants and want to all to be loans. I think the summit to try and thrash it all out is 16/17th July or thereabouts.

Peregrina NATO would prefer peace; people die in war, and as much of HQ NATO and SHAPE is staffed by serving or ex military, they know this. NATO is about making sure that Allies are funding their defence properly; that personnel and materiel are available if and when needed.

DGRossetti · 03/07/2020 14:34

It's been announced, but they will have to raise the money somewhere, and there are member states that are digging their heels in about grants and want to all to be loans. I think the summit to try and thrash it all out is 16/17th July or thereabouts.

Mercifully squeezing out any time for Brexit.

HateIsNotGood · 03/07/2020 17:28

Hi all fellow Brexit Boarders - last time I raised the subject of Brexit looming on the BB, you'd think I was being a GF by the response.

Anyway, it seems there's still some (eg: OP) that are still consumed by 'hatred' over the Ref result and the same old pps re-hashing the same old details - which is fine.

Although Goch is a welcome, artticulate addition.

I don't have anything really to add, except it's good to note that others have noted that Brexit looms with no Extension requested.

InOutofmymind · 03/07/2020 18:31

The EU will raise the money in exactly the same way the BoE will or the Fed or any other central bank... they will all do QE.
UK is on target for over 300 billion of new QE, so we borrow from ourselves.

Interesting what Germany is doing re VAT dropping it to 5% & huge financial stimulus, we prefer Build Build Build and 5billion of re-announced money.

CeciledeVolanges · 03/07/2020 23:38

Brexit happened on the last day of January. We are out. It’s the transition period which ends after the end of this year.

thegcatsmother · 04/07/2020 00:27

The EU will raise the money in exactly the same way the BoE will or the Fed or any other central bank... they will all do QE.
I thought that that was doubtful, given the ruling of the German court, and the reluctance of some of the German members of the ECB to allow it. I had heard that the money would be raised on the markets...that'd be London then?

InOutofmymind · 04/07/2020 08:29

ECB is buying debt/bonds across the EU and London isn't some sort of bargaining chip for leavers to use against the EU.

Plenty of other FC 's across the globe, if the UK Govt ever decided to interfere in a private sector industry, which is why they won't.

XingMing · 04/07/2020 20:17

Just not many with as much depth of knowledge about Euromarket debt. Please will someone explain to me why it is okay to laud the fragile Euro economy and system, while vilifying the UK's? Our financial sector ratios are much stronger, post Basel, than any other country in Europe, and the capital requirements regulations are more exacting. There was a lot of stuff to like about the EU, but their failure to regulate, consolidate and coordinate finance, taxation and fiscal protocols rendered it unworkable, because unless Germany and the Scandinavian nations agree to underwrite the PIGS debt, it cannot be a community enterprise. And the northern European countries will not stump up until the Meditteranean nations collect the tax due efficiently.

Goosefoot · 04/07/2020 20:44

@LilMissRe

But it's the poorest that will suffer the most- The rich always leave unscathed? So it makes no sense at all. The EU is not about rich people hopping over with there rich friends because they can afford it. Leaving disproportionately impacts the poorer people so if being pissed off was the reason they voted out- they've shot themselves in the foot.

Take Ebbw Vale for example- I used to work there last year and remember how angry they were- the area is so deprived and neglected. They kept trying to convince me that their problems were caused by the EU- instead of admitting that it was Westminster that was the real evil. Wales will suffer the most, and they'd be wrong to actually think Westminster will compensate for lost EU funding and think of them.

Another thought-If I was an an EU employer, would I want to hire a UK worker with the hassle that comes with moving around? Nerp. I'd probably hire anyone else but if I wanted to save money and paperwork. So effectively leave voters looking for work abroad in the EU have put themselves at a disadvantage.

This idea that it makes no sense as a protest againt theelite because the poor will suffer most is common, but I think it really misses out what people are doing when they vote in this kind of way. This goes for all kinds of similar scenarios, not just Brexit.

While people may be upset about being left behind politically and economically, they don't necessarily expect that a vote against that system will immediately benefit them - they may even think it will cause difficulty.

What they are looking to do is discredit or question or express opposition to the legitimacy of the system that they see as being a problem. Because if it's a system problem, that's the only thing that will do the job. This applies in this case to many working class voters and also older people who supported the European project back when it started but now have serious concerns about where it is now or where they see it going.

A significant contributed has been that there has been no real way for many of those who feel that way to have any sort of political representation. Traditionally it has been leftist parties that are concerned with workers rights and things like movement of labour as a tactic of the capitalist class. But where would you vote now, or for the past 30 years, to get even a look in for that POV? Who talks about movement of capital and labour?

Someone here on MN said something that really struck me too - that going door to door as a LP campaigner in the North, there was a real sense that many people weren't looking for any real concrete improvement - it was more like they were tenants in a crappy property who had decided to lock their negligent landlord in with them until they agreed to make improvements.

Until people understand the psychology of people's actions, and there has been a reckoning on the left about abandoning their roots, there is gong to be no way forward.

InOutofmymind · 04/07/2020 20:52

Why do you think the EU has a fragile economy?

The UK is predicted to be the hardest hit of all leading economies, mishandling of CV and over reliance on services.

I worked in the city during "big bang" and the subsequent expansion into Docklands etc... impressive!
The similar can and will happen to other FC's Frankfurt? Dublin? perhaps even Paris, People can and will move, almost all services now are cloud based, accessible from anywhere with hi speed internet.
Unwise to think London has some god given right to be europe's no1 FC, it became so as the UK was in the EEC/EU, Thatcher understood this, Cameron/Johnson did not.

Peregrina · 04/07/2020 20:52

it was more like they were tenants in a crappy property who had decided to lock their negligent landlord in with them until they agreed to make improvements.

But Johnson and Co aren't the landlords who are locked in - they are the landlords who lock the tenants in and then scarper.

nicky7654 · 04/07/2020 20:58

Everyone I know including extended family voted Brexit with bloody good reasons. You don't agree then that's fine but what's done is done fair and square. Surely you don't think European Countries are not going to allow us to holiday or work in their Countries? They would lose millions if they did and I'm sure they arnt that stupid.

XingMing · 04/07/2020 21:01

I am reminded of an extremely vulgar phrase from the late 60s or early 70s, which ran "Life is like a shit sandwich, the more bread you have, the less shit you eat".

While that is obviously completely distasteful, it remains true. But, forgive me, there are a lot of folk who refuse to hoist in the real life truth that the best way out of poverty is education. No one can make you rich, or middle class, or clever, or sharp elbowed to give you a high flying school, but you can insist that schools teach and that adolescents conform, whatever your life. Of course, there are people who fail at life generally. There probably always will be.

Cartesiandebt · 04/07/2020 21:01

We have never had a referendum on PR! We had a referendum on the alternative vote system, which is NOT a form of PR. The Lib-Dems were completely outmanoeuvred here and should never have agreed to this compromise. It was one of the worst mistakes they ever made

Totally agree

Peregrina · 04/07/2020 21:07

Surely you don't think European Countries are not going to allow us to holiday or work in their Countries? They would lose millions if they did and I'm sure they arnt that stupid.

On the contrary - with a pool of 450 million to chose from, why should they bother to recruit someone with a UK passport unless that person has exceptional skills and is worth the extra costs involved?

Similarly - now that E Europe, especially Poland and the Baltic states are becoming more prosperous, why shouldn't they take the places once taken by Britons? How many of the drunken larger louts in Mallorca going to be missed?

1Morewineplease · 04/07/2020 21:07

I live in Kent that relies on thousands of fruit and veg pickers.
British folk weren’t interested , bar a few people who weren’t already working but owned their own homes anyway.
We have had to rely on Eastern Europeans to come and pick. We need thousands. Thank goodness the government agreed to bring plane loads of land workers . ( PS, I do not agree with the current government, generally.)

So unless you want to pay £10 for a punnet of strawberries then migrant workers are essential.

XingMing · 04/07/2020 21:10

The EC has a fragile economy because, of 27 member countries, fewer than half pay in money; the rest are using those contributions to develop. Brexit means that the second largest contributor to EU funding will stop paying contributions. Germany, the Netherlands and the other north European nations are not willing to fund the Meditteranean nation's party.

Goosefoot · 04/07/2020 21:17

@Peregrina

it was more like they were tenants in a crappy property who had decided to lock their negligent landlord in with them until they agreed to make improvements.

But Johnson and Co aren't the landlords who are locked in - they are the landlords who lock the tenants in and then scarper.

I think the idea is to lock in all the political types, from every party, as well as all the corporate types. Their beef isn't particularly with the Conservatives, probably its more with Labour, and mostly with capital.

As for whether various parties will scamper, probably to some extent (movement of capital and all), but it's not particularly in their interests for the British economy to be in trouble either, is it?