to hate what Brexiters have done

[mrsmootoo]

I know this has been done before, but knowing that we are now likely on course for a No Deal Brexit in the midst of a pandemic I am so angry and upset about what Brexiters voted for. I'll forgive any who were conned and now think better of it, but I cannot get over the loss of Freedom of Movement to live and work in the EU - not so much for me, but for my children - and the way the UK is sliding in international standing economically and in attracting doctors, nurses, scientists etc. (I know from before that Leavers don't care what I think, but just had to post).

It is very hard to argue why something did not happen e. g why war did not break out. I personally am quite sure that the EEC/EU has played its part, and less sure that it is a result of NATO, although that had some part in the post war settlement.

And I agree with the point above about Yugoslavia.

While I applaud your optimistic outlook, @InOutofmymind, I don't think the EU could have stopped the cork popping out of the bottle in the 1990s Balkan conflict. That was about hundreds of years of religious and tribal disagreement between Serbs and Slavs. Once Tito died, there was no strong man to hold the centre and enforce any rule of law. It was civil war, and those are the very worst. Neither side emerged from that war with any credit whatsoever.

YABU to post in am I being unreasonable, when there is a dedicated Brexit section

Where folks can slug it out ad infintum ad nauseum

But nobody goes there anymore, because it's an entrenched bitchfest, so to have a reasoned discussion requires venturing beyond the trench. Sorry and apologies @puzzledpiece.

I'm not so sure about Yugoslavia. The hatreds were deeply entrenched and once Tito died, the genie was out of the bottle. All the old animosities between Slav and Serb were revived, and the weapons were brought out of the cupboards. I don't think that a similar conflict between France and Germany has been on the cards since 1945.

I don't think that a similar conflict between France and Germany has been on the cards since 1945.

Because they worked bloody hard to avoid it! By breaking down the barriers between the counties on trade and freedom of movement and environmental protections.... by bringing up their kids in a way that didn't glorify "The War" like we did in Britain.

less sure that it is a result of NATO, although that had some part in the post war settlement.

Have a look at time lines . NATO was set up in 1949, and celebrated its 70th birthday last year. When was the ECSC set up? Not until 1952. There was no European parliament til 1979, and no EU until 1992 and Maastricht, when it changed from a Community to a Union.

I would argue that indeed, NATO has kept Europe at peace both internally and externally for 70 years.

As for the war in the Balkans, it was NATO that stepped in to stop it; and the EU that is pushing that region towards war again. You might find this interesting:
www.dw.com/en/opinion-eus-no-to-western-balkans-could-spark-conflict/a-51175992

I was hoping to retire to Italy in my mid 50's. Brexit put a stop to that

Italy will probably be the next to leave, if the EU doesn't collapse first

Which reminds me. Where has the EU been all the while this pandemic has been raging across Europe? Nowhere to he seen. Not a peep. Useless

@Flaxmeadow I suppose it depends on what you think the EU is ? It is made up of lots of European countries, and each of those countries has dealt with the pandemic in their own preferred way. Like with so many other things, even as member states of the EU, they have the autonomy to do so. Little link below which describes what the EU and the member states have been doing

europa.eu/european-union/coronavirus-response_en

Little link below which describes what the EU and the member...

Waffle

Waffle

Is that a breakfast demand or supposed to be a pithy reply ?

The EU have done a lot, although the UK won’t benefit from it. They’ve announced a 750-billion Euro bailout fund for the bloc. Its confirmed that 500 billion would be given as grants to help Europe's struggling economies recover from COVID-19. An additional 250 billion will be available in loans. It's all part of a 1.85 trillion euro package.

Where has the EU been all the while this pandemic has been raging across Europe? Nowhere to he seen. Not a peep. Useless

Agree, which proves the EU is little more than a trading bloc and nothing to fear, all 27 are independent and able to deal with their own affairs as they see fit.

An EU able to deal with a Pandemic, would require the sort of powers the Chinese state has.

Is Galileo working yet? I read there was (ahem) a technical hitch (described as a clusterfuck elsewhere) last year, and that all was not going to plan

Supposed to be fully functional by 2020, so hitches to be expected, it's up now.
I note you couldn't find fault with the long list of other european technical & medical success stories, which easily compete with anything the yanks can do? (or anyone else)

UK has bought defunct satellites unsuitable for its own version of GPS, we are years away from getting our own military level GPS system... because of brexit.

A lot of people on mumsnet claimed they’d leave the country if Leave won - I’d be interested to know how many did. Very few I'll bet.

flex Which reminds me. Where has the EU been all the while this pandemic has been raging across Europe? Nowhere to he seen. Not a peep. Useless
These comments always make me laugh, as they're invariably made by people who have spent years whinging about sovereignty.

I am still not convinced that NATO is this wonderful peace promoting organisation. The Council of Europe was also set up in 1949 with the specific aim of promoting democracy and the rule of law.

NATO was set up to counter Soviet aggression. Which IMO was partly informed by the US's zealous promotion of individualism at the expense of co-operation. (And also a chance to build an Empire since WW2 had finished the British Empire.)

@derxa

A lot of people on mumsnet claimed they’d leave the country if Leave won - I’d be interested to know how many did. Very few I'll bet.

I would query the definition of lots in this case

I certainly saw posters saying they would leave But i didnt see lots

So i would agree there probably aren’t many

A lot of people on mumsnet claimed they’d leave the country if Leave won - I’d be interested to know how many did. Very few I'll bet.

I think you are probably betting wrong. In my own circle I know five people who have already gone.

Italy will probably be the next to leave, if the EU doesn't collapse first

Firstly, both of those scenarios are highly unlikely.

Secondly, even if Italy did leave, why would it want closer ties to the U.K.? That doesn’t stack up.

I’m upset by the election fiddling (where’s the Russia report) and the failure to actually handle Brexit properly.

This is all about making rich people richer. That’s it. People think it will benefit them but as soon as you start digging, the benefits are thin.

flex Which reminds me. Where has the EU been all the while this pandemic has been raging across Europe? Nowhere to he seen. Not a peep. Useless

As opposed to our sovereign government who've done an amazing job (not). Especially as we had more warning than the Italians and the Spanish where it was endemic earlier but still did worse than them. And also refused to sign up to the things that the EU did do like ordering PPE en bloc so we didn't have any for weeks.

We are far more like our new chlorinated chicken-producing friends the US, who will now have much more control over how we live our lives as we will be much more reliant on them economically. Which is exactly why Trump was over the moon about Brexit. They have had a disastrous COVID experience too. We can look forward to worse working conditions, fewer taxes paid by multinationals, more tax avoidance by rich individuals, more inequality across the UK.

And people who crow about having got their country back can just fuck off.

In my own circle I know five people who have already gone. I'm sure you're lovely Peregrina and I don't want to cause offence but that statement is so mumsnet that it made me laugh out loud. People who have 'circles' probably are rich enough and skilled enough to go where they want. That's the problem basically. Some of the Brexit voters had little incentive to keep the status quo. I voted Remain because my life was absolutely fine. Why take a risk.

Pinklynx totally agree!

@awaynboilyurheid thanks.

And OP thanks for giving me the chance to let rip. I will get over it because we have to. But FFS it's hard to get over something that is so stupid and will cause us so much hardship. It is even worse to be gaslighted at how wonderful it is and how it's the start of a new dawn.

And yes it's democracy in action. But if we democratically voted to abolish all universities, for example, would you expect everyone to just meekly shut up about it? Democracy isn't a snapshot, it's a process. Otherwise we'd have Jeremy Corbyn still running the Labour Party.