So angry at brother

[Partychaos]

My brother was furloughed in March at 80% of his wage. SIL is working as normal (3 days a week) her work is hugely busy at the moment due to staff being off for childcare/self isolating/shielding and they are crying out for overtime. Brother is at home with 3 kids home schooling.

Brother messaged me in April to ask to borrow some money very apologetic didn’t budget well didn’t realize what a difference it would make to only get 80%. I said of course no problem I understand times are tough. Sent over £250.
May we were talking and he said both older kids needed new trainers and my niece had a growth spurt and he didn’t know what to do. I sorted through some of dd’s clothes and left a huge bin bag of summer clothes for them, I spoke to the kids and we chose the trainers together and I got them delivered to their house. A week later a message saying he didn’t know how he was going to afford the food shopping and he can’t believe how quickly they are going through food- yeah same mate. But I sent over £150.

June -again I’m so sorry to ask but can I borrow £300 I’ve got an unexpected bill I don’t know what to do. Don’t tell SIL I’ve asked. I asked why it was a secret because if I had a bill the person I would be telling is my spouse not my sibling. He said she would feel awkward about borrowing money but he doesn’t know what to do. I talked to dh and he agreed we could send £200 but £300 was too much of a stretch. Sent it over.

I’ve just spoken to my dad who is retired and surviving on state pension, he has nothing to his name and lives month to month. I often need to put extra electric and gas on for him or do a weeks shop. My brother has asked him for the other £100. I’m raging. My dad transferred everything from his account about £80 and has literally about £3 in his pocket. I asked why he said yes and he was upset thinking of his grandkids without food. I asked what he was going to do about food and he said oh I’ll manage It’ll be fine.
I’ve transferred £100 to my dad and have a food shop coming next week with my supermarket delivery.

I know times are tough but surely if your spouse is at home and you only work part time you would picking up all of the overtime possible (office job and social distancing in place so not high risk) Or you would apply for a mortgage holiday, or an overdraft, or a credit card. I don’t know their financial situation eg if they already have debt or what their credit scores are but surely you would look into things like food bank referrals before asking an elderly man for money.

Dh thinks I’m being unreasonable to be so angry that he asked my dad and that he had the ability to say no if he didn’t have it. I think he should have known that my dad would have given him his last for the kids who he adores and he knew that and kind of exploited it.
I’m having wine and I’m not talking to him tonight but I intend to confront him before I do am I being unreasonable to be so pissed off at him?

Well done on confronting him. Can’t believe the crocodile tears! Wow I thought I was bad with money buying a couple of extra treats with the food shop and getting one - one! - Switch game for lockdown entertainment!

If this situation doesn’t make them (I say them, as you suggest she’s not great with money either) sort their spending out then nothing will.

I’d find it really hard not to talk to SIL about this. Maybe they’re both irresponsible with money but if she didn’t know he’s also taking money from family then maybe she’s not realising just how bad it is.

Good for you, OP! You should actually get them on a plan to pay you back. 600 pounds a lot of money.

Good for you op. Oh my gosh I cannot believe that hes been spending that amount on game apps?!?! I'm horrified. I do think that you need to talk with SIL and get it out in the open. Otherwise hes going to borrow it from somewhere else. Sounds like they need to down size their property, take the electronics off the kids and budget their food shop. Start actually living withing their means. Contacting a company who will consolidate their loans and agree a sensible repayment plan is urgently needed.

What a fucking idiot!!

That's completely ridiculous to be spending money on sodding apps!!

And I agree the food shopping is a piss take too and not healthy.

I'm not bloody surprised it's not a happy marriage!

I strongly suspect the money worries are almost all due to his appalling attitude to spending!

I'd bet good money the reason they're arguing about state of house and kids schooling is ALSO because he's not pulling his weight there either!

If his wife were to post I suspect she'd get a deluge of LTB posts! @BlingLoving I hope his wife HAS found mn and is getting support to deal with or even leave this arse!

If he's furloughed and she's working he needs to get off his arse and ensure HE is covering 90% of the household chores and parenting.

Lazy, selfish sod!!

@relievedlady - I have a sister just the same. I'm nc now for several years for this and MANY other reasons. Been posting on a CF thread about her too. She's a 40 something mother of 3 and still needs parents to bail her out several times a month!

@LannieDuck why should op take on the mental load for this grown ass man?! He's big enough to sort his own shit he just doesn't WANT to.

As per the aforementioned CF thread these types revel in their immaturity and lack of personal responsibility.

And yes I agree - still tell your sil and let her know she has your support I'm making it clear to him his actions are out of order - admittedly that's assuming she wouldn't agree with him but from what you've said I don't think she would. For all you know he's told her he's shopped around for insurance etc and couldn't get a better deal. Perhaps frame it as offering to help THEM as a family with your industry expertise.

And good you told your dad too! I doubt he'll be impressed he's gone without food for fucking app purchases and novelty food!

@justasking111 I think it's out of order to blame the sil. She may well be buying healthy food that's going uneaten and being undermined elsewhere by the brother. Depending on age of kids they won't see the dynamic and will just be all for the Disney dad

He tried to tell me that he’s had a hard life and no one ever told him how to deal with money- it’s not his fault. another commonality with the CF thread!

Many people weren't taught how to deal with money but they learned because they had to!

My parents were pretty good on teaching us to how to budget, keep a cash book, shop around etc yet brother and I not only manage this well we've also taught ourselves things like how to build a good credit record, knowledge on shopping for things like broadband (which is a bone of contention with parents to be honest as they don't understand and won't leave extortionate BT!), consumer rights etc

I've known my sister to throw out (literally not even freecycle) expensive items as she wouldn't bother herself to either learn how they work or return them if they weren't working. Horrific waste not only of money but environmentally speaking.

My kids had a gaming treat yesterday- £6.99 on some Uno cards as they deserved a treat for being so good.

Good for you!! People like this are a bottomless pit. People who can’t budget exasperate me.

He tried to tell me that he’s had a hard life and no one ever told him how to deal with money- it’s not his fault. Nope we had the same childhood and yes it was shit but that doesn’t absolve you of being an adult and learning

You're right of course, but I can't tell you how good it is to see someone with that attitude on here ... so often all we see is excuse-making and "it's not their fault; they were never taught so how are they to know?", usually with a suggestion that schools should teach whatever-it-is instead

Are you absolutely sure he's your brother, given the huge difference between you, and that your DPs didn't bring home the wrong baby?

You see this all the time on MN. It's children having children.

I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this.

It makes me so angry how useless some men can be, and how some women spend their lives mopping up after them.

You can let your dad's bank know he is vulnerable which means they query any large transfers of money. We did that with my mum's bank and it stopped her transferring hundreds to a scammer.

Well done, OP, you have done your brother a big favour - if he chooses to act on what he has learned.

I suspect he is wrong - he didn't not learn to handle money because of his and your shit upbringing, he didn't learn what it takes to show love and be a good parent. He thinks he has to buy them tons of tech and pay ludicrous amounts of money for electronic screen time wasting. He doesn't know the value of anything except what is bought - with money that he doesn't have.

Advising Step Change is a good idea. I think he would also benefit from some counselling for him to explore and see why he feels the need to spend , spend, spend on the kids instead of parenting them with love and activities!

I second seeing if you can protect your dad’s money. I know when my ex was cut off from one source of free money he just tried it on other people.

Hopefully if your brother knows you’ll be watching your dad’s account now that won’t be where he’ll turn.

Tell him to get the holiday money back and transfer you everything you've loaned him to date. Give a week's deadline, and tell him you'll tell SIL if you don't get the money back.

Graphista

"why should op take on the mental load for this grown ass man?! He's big enough to sort his own shit he just doesn't WANT to."

Agree OP doesn't have to, but it's her brother and she might want to. And I wasn't suggesting she take on the mental load, just that if he's in a hole and wants to get out of it, she might give him guidance rather than money.

But totally agree it depends if he wants to change. From OP's latest update, it doesn't sound like it.

It seems odd to describe it as ‘not a happy marriage‘- it sounds very neutral, when I read the details I don’t think sounds like marriage isn’t great, I think poor sil must be going batshit with such a useless twat as the parent of her children.

@LannieDuck unfortunately people like ops brother rarely want or appreciate such help.

My parents and I have sat and worked out budgets and debt payment plans with my sister on NUMEROUS occasions

She WON'T stick to them because basically she thinks the world owes her!

That despite her inability to keep a job she is still entitled to almost all her groceries named brands and her and dc to have latest tech/toys and clothes from the more expensive end of the high street.

She refuses to accept that these are luxuries and will argue till the cows come home that everyone else she knows is the same (they're not)

I would be furious too, OP. He should not ask your Dad if he is aware of his financial circumstances which presumably he is. So your SIL is unaffected & he is getting 80% of his salary. That is not too bad at all. Is he incapable of budgeting? To me, something is not right here. What is this unexpected bill? I would want an explanation as to why it is ok for your poor Dad to go short as far as your DB is concerned...but not DB or his family. Your SIL needs to in the loop here as he has money secrets that could impact all of them. Before I got to the end of your initial post, I thought gambling too. I hope not. But do have a firm chat. And Dad is no longer under any circumstances a mark for a loan.

So it’s not gambling or drugs he’s just absolutely shit with money

^

But you're not. But it becomes your responsibility?!

When is he paying you back?

It's not rocket science - don't spend money you don't have.

Minecraft skins!

Just RTFT...well done OP for trying with him. That spending patten is so bad, shocking to re-book hols & yet ask you several times for money & then his elderly father. His priority is himself. You are doing SIL no favours keeping his secrets. I hope he leaves your Dad's money alone from here onward. Watch like a hawk OP that your Dad is not going short. Well done again OP...hopefully he listens now.

Your SiL needs to be in possession of all the facts if they are to make a debt control plan. This downward spiral is going to implode very soon. It may not be easy but your brother must tell her sooner rather than later if there is to be any hope for their relationship. Tell him that if he doesn't tell her within the next day then you will. His deceit is a betrayal.

Your brothers actions towards your dad are jaw dropping. He clearly lacks personal responsibility, self discipline with money and lacks parenting skills and probably relationship skills too.

Going against the grain it sounds like he had a very difficult childhood and I'm not surprised he is struggling as an adult because of this.

He obviously won't change until he is ready to, sometimes people need to hit rock bottom before they are willing to change.

OP you sound like such a kind capable responsible and generous person. You can still support your bro without giving financial support.

Going against the grain it sounds like he had a very difficult childhood and I'm not surprised he is struggling as an adult because of this Funny how OP his sister had the same upbringing and has managed to be able to function as an adult.

Lots of people have difficult childhoods and are able to function as an adult. He is choosing to behave like this because it's easy for him as everyone is prepared to excuse his him 'because of his childhood'.

OP, the only way for your brother to grow up is for him and his wife to lose everything. Of course his wife knows what happening, she know he borrowing money from you, your dad and god knows who else he's tapping up for money. She know's he paying the children to be quite by wasting money on online games, she can see he's wasting money and over spending on food. The fact is that they don't want to admit that they are causing their money issues.

Going against the grain it sounds like he had a very difficult childhood and I'm not surprised he is struggling as an adult because of this.

Nope not an excuse! He's a grown ass man now he can't keep blaming his childhood! Others have the same or worse and don't behave like this.