Who pays

[Courtney555]

If you were significantly better off than a really good friend, and it made no difference to you, whilst they were on a tight budget, would you always pay for coffees, (non extravagant) lunches etc.

I was going to put circumstances, then realised they were irrelevant as we are both nice, decent people, just one of us is really financially comfortable, and the other, for very genuine reasons, has very little money.

I love going out with her and our DC, we deliberately don't pick places with high entry fees (we both have children), but for example, if we go to the park, I'll buy everyone an ice-cream. If we meet for a Starbucks, I'll get the bill.

It's just kind of every time. And it's bugging me a little. She's not being entitled or a CF who could afford to pick up the whole bill herself. £20 I don't notice on a round of coffee and cake, is a tangible part of her weekly disposable income. I think there's an element that she knows it's negligible to me, so feels quite comfortable about it. And I don't begrudge it, I love her to bits, but when it's every time, I just think, once a month, she could say, "let's split it."

It's never anything over say £30, and I'd hate the thought of saying "shall we go halves" and her to feel obliged, then that was the money for her and DC dinner.

She's not a freeloader, truly, she's not. If it sounds like she is, it's my error in how I've worded this. I'm arguing internally, that, "£20/30 doesn't affect me, so what's the problem"...."but then 5 times a month, that's up to £150, which is a lot for her to be ok with accepting as treats"...."but the spend over a month doesn't affect me, so what's the problem"

So, AIBU. If we have a great time, as do our DC, and it's of immaterial consequence for me to pick up the tab for sundries, and very material for her, do I just keep doing it?

Or, just because it's immaterial, doesn't mean it's ok to keep doing it? Or more to the point, because it's a very material amount to her, should she be ok with accepting it on every occasion.

Myself and a family member have very different views here, would like to see general consensus.

(Quick clause, before this runs off on a stealth boast tangent, I hope people have the clarity to see this is not about being "significantly richer than yow" )

I would never always always let someone else pay. But at the same time I wouldn't resent paying for my friend as I've been stoney broke before.
Annoyingly though I've got a really tight friend who's on pretty big bucks, who insists on buying own/splitting 50/50 and has never ever picked up a bill when she knows I'm skint, and yet I've paid for the odd coffee/meal in full and also taken wine over expecting her to have food in and we've then ordered takeaway which we've then split. I always think of next time she will say her treat and she never does. Now that annoys me.

Do they really have a less enjoyable time if they don’t get an ice cream etc? Or is that just in your head? They still see their friends and hurtle around having fun. You don’t need to buy things to make a day out better. It’s a valuable lesson to teas here them.

Well - it might be a good opportunity for you to explore why why you necessarily need to spend money for something to be "enjoyable" having a little bag of sandwiches might not be as horrific as you think.

I remember when I took a year off to study after being on a massively (for my age) well paying job. I went from living on about £100k a year to having no income as a student. Sure I was youngish so more flexible. But I remember being astounded by how all these lifestyle expenses I thought were so crucial I didn't need at all.

You might actually find it quite liberating to not need to spend money on days out.

Otherwise - if it is a necessity for you to enjoy days out to spend money and she simply doesn't have it then yes I think you need to suck it up unless she is clearly taking the piss.

It sounds like most of the expenses are not part of your initial plans and they are coming up partly due to lack of organisation.

So either don't buy extras when you are out (assume you will need lunch and pack it, and tell her you are doing that so that she can as well), or buy them just for your own children and get over the guilt of hers not having them. Or continue what you are doing and become OK with that.

I went out the other day with a friend who is on a very restricted budget. I'm not rich, but could afford a simple lunch out - but made sure to brig some sandwiches that wouldn't make her lunch look rubbish by comparison. Would that really be such a huge sacrifice for you?

it would be helpful if you could fill in a few gaps about exactly how she behaves on these occasions.

Ok....so it would go something like this:

We've gone for a walk, into town, feed the ducks. Sat down nattering at the park while they all run off to play. One of my DC will run back the colour of beetroot. "Mummy, can I get a slushie I'm boiling" (the rest will hear this)...
"Oooooooooh yeah!! Slushies!!!!!"

Sometimes I'll say yes, sometimes I'll say no. If it's a yes, friend never says "let me pay for DC" or "mine don't need one" she never says anything, I just sort of say, "watch them, I'll be back in a mo" and will return with slushies. She kind of pretends it hasn't happened.

Or, we'll have been out, and DC will decide they're hungry and maybe her DC will say "Can we have lunch with (my) DC?". And she will say, "oh, I don't know about that" then all the DC will go "Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaase!!!!!!!!" and she'll look to me for a response, and I tend to say "oh, go on then" and much cheering ensues, and we end up having lunch. Which, don't get me wrong, I love, and all the DC have a great time. Then the bill comes, and it's not that she ignores it or pretends she hasn't seen it, she just kind of goes a bit quiet and avoids eye contact while I pay. She always says thank you, and makes sure her DC say thank you too.

Perhaps by her placing the responsibility on me to confirm that we can have lunch together, she feels there is an understanding that I had the option to say no, and by saying yes, I know I'll have to pay, because I completely understand her financial situation. I guess it annoys me that she passes that buck to me. Either I disappoint all the children by saying no to lunch together, or I agree, and accept that means paying. Now I say that out loud, I'm a bit annoyed. She could quite easily say, no, another time, but she leaves it to me to either foot the bill, or look like the villain. That's probably a little dramatic, but you get my drift.

This is kind of how I see it. My DC are not spoiled. They don't get every ice-cream they ask for etc. But, if we're all out, and having a lovely day, and for example, we've found ourselves at a national trust gardens, and they'd like a cookie, and some pellets to feed the fish, then of course they can. And I don't feel I should deny them something simple and enjoyable on the basis that I'd have to exclude friend's DC or have to pay for them too. I want them all to have a lovely time

What if she actually can't afford to occasionally pick up the tab? Or can't afford to do it once as she's afraid you will take it that in the future that you will always go halves when you've decided that money should be spent.

Or what if she'd far rather you not offer to buy the lollies and instead say "I'm just grabbing Tarquin and Isadora some lollies be right back".

I have friends who will offer to buy things for my kids while we are out because they feel obligated but I really don't want them to. I have usually told my kids that we won't be buying snacks as it's not in the budget. I don't fancy bringing out a homemade cake and a flask either .

I always pay if I can and it bothers me as I really don't want to or if I literally haven't got it will just say "no thank you" on repeat and it gets awkward because then my kids are looking all puppy-eyed.

She is happy to go somewhere free you think you need to spend money. This is on you. Just don't.

She could quite easily say, no, another time, but she leaves it to me to either foot the bill, or look like the villain. That's probably a little dramatic, but you get my drift.

No, you've made her look like the villain to her own kids because you have both tacitly agreed to go somewhere "free" then changed the rules. You've also put in her a spot of saying "no I can't afford that, sorry kids let's just watch Courtney's kids have pudding! Yay!"

How about next time actually agree to go somewhere and ask her if she wants to stay through lunch and you each pack a picnic for your families?

i'm with you here OP. If you bring it up I expect it would be so embarrassing and humiliating for her, she wouldn't come out with you again and would feel as if she owed you. I would start suggesting coffees at each others houses and other free activities, stop spending any money for a month and see if she notices. She may get the hint. If not ask her to pay one time and tell her you can 'pay her back your 'half'. I know you don't want to put her in a sticky situation but if you do this once, it will make things easier in the long run. She may not be a CF but it is very cheeky to just let someone pay. Would you let someone pay if roles were reversed? I am skint and would never let my wealthy friends pay.

I think it boils down to gratitude and offering. If every time you did it she was like “thanks, really appreciate it” or every few times said “no, let me at least pay for our own this time” you’d probably be happy paying for her indefinitely. But I agree, there’s no way I could do it if she just “pretends it hasn’t happened” like you mentioned.

The tricky part is, you can’t force her into being grateful out loud or into offering to pay. So I think sadly the only solution is to either bite the bullet and say “Look, I’m happy to cover the cost for your DC most of the time, but can you start paying for yourself at least while I cover the kids?” so that she realises how it’s coming across; or else start gradually not paying for stuff altogether; or else start only paying for your kids (so in the scenario above you’d only buy slushies for your own kids and not hers). This is how most people manage money with friends so you shouldn’t feel bad.

Either I disappoint all the children by saying no to lunch together, or I agree, and accept that means paying. Now I say that out loud, I'm a bit annoyed. She could quite easily say, no, another time, but she leaves it to me to either foot the bill, or look like the villain.
I do agree with others that I wouldn't do this in her situation.
(To be honest, I think I'd stop going out with you, thinking that you were clearly living in another world to me and feeling really embarrassed!)
But I can kind of see it from her side too. She probably never gets her children an ice-cream, and always has to say no if they do ask. She might not get anything nice for herself either. She knows you can afford it, and you keep offering - and all she has to do is say nothing and she'll get a lovely treat. You can see the temptation.

I don't think you'd really look villanous if you said "No" occasionally. "Sorry kids, we're going home for lunch now. We'll see Jack and Jill again on Tuesday!" If my kids ever complained to me that it wasn't fair and I was being mean, I would usually agree with them and remind them in a factual way that I was, after all, evil, so what else did they expect.

Okay so it sounds like she's embarrassed about not being able to pay, and it's not that she's instigating these plans but, as you say, leaving it up to you to make the decision.

From her perspective I can understand that she feels that you know the score so if you decide to go ahead then it's on the basis that you will pay, but honestly she should woman up and address it a bit more openly - it's not really fair that she puts the onus on you all the time (and leaves you to look like the bad guy if you say no.) It's no doubt embarrassing for her, but she's one of two adults in the situation, so she ought to address it with you (not in front of DC) rather than just pretending it's not happening.

Tricky one though. You've only really got 3 choices - the first, carry on as you are and try to get over the irritation, the second, try to engineer situations which don't involve you paying or thirdly, have a conversation about it. Say something like 'look, I appreciate this is awkward for both of us, but I notice that it's always expected that I pay for things when we meet. I know our circumstances are different, and you're a good friend, so I'm happy to treat you and the DC, but it's making me feel a bit uncomfortable that it seems to be expected now, and that when the DC ask for things you leave it to me to make the decision, which makes me look like the bad guy if I say no.'

Ideally that would open up a dialogue that if she is a good friend, you could come to some sort of understanding - but there is a risk that she will take it badly and respond defensively or just back away from the friendship if she feels too uncomfortable. I don't think there's an easy solution unfortunately.

No way would I feel comfortable either way round. I certainly would never expect a friend to pay for me every time we went out, I just could not do that. Equally if I was always being expected to pay, even in a nice way, I would not except that either. Regardless of differences in income, I've got too much self-respect.

I would never allow anyone to subsidise me. If I can’t afford it, I don’t go. I lost, who I thought was my best friend (let’s call her Janet) over not paying her fair share. Janet worked, whereas I was a student. She didn’t drive, so it was always me taking my (actually my dad’s) car. If we went out for the day and stopped for lunch I would have a soft drink, because I was driving, whereas Janet would have a large glass of wine plus the more expensive food, then split the bill equally!

The end came when we were on a night out and I saw another friend (who didn’t know Janet). I had done other friend a favour (taking her to vet with her dog), so she came across to me and offered to buy me a drink because of it. I said no and that I was with Janet and would see her another time. This friend said no she wanted to get me a drink and said to Janet let me get you a drink too. Janet said thank you, I was just going to get a cocktail jug (she had been on bottles of beer) which was really expensive. My other friend just looked at me in shock, I know she wasn’t particularly well off. I just said NO, I would see her again, and she sighed in relief as I knew she would struggle to pay for it. My ‘friend’ then fell out with me, as she was annoyed she wasn’t getting her free expensive drink!

This was the catalyst I needed to see just how awful Janet was. So I walked out without saying anything and went home. The next day Janet text me saying how awful I had been to leave her having to pay for a taxi home and that she expected me to pay my half of the fare! I said I would meet her to talk, to which she said that she expected lunch to make up for how horrible I had been to her. When I got to the restaurant she had already got a bottle of wine on the tab and had ordered a platter for starters. When I saw this the fog just lifted and I realised how much she was just using me. I said I wasn’t staying and Janet said that I had better leave some money for lunch as she was broke. I actually laughed and walked out. I was absolutely destroyed on her Facebook page, but you know what, I didn’t care and actually found it was a relief to lose her as a ‘friend.’

I think you need to engineer it so that you don't accidentally find yourself at a National Trust property where you have to pay for fish pellets and there is a shop. Those places are massively expensive, not a cheap or free day out.

Hmmm this is tricky. I still think she's cheeky after your updates, and that she ought to acknowledge it even if she can't name some gesture towards contributing. (Perhaps she's embarrassed but clearly not too embarrassed to fill her face at your expense.)

But I've got a bit more sympathy after appreciating that (a) she does say thank you and (b) that purchasing food and drinks when out is something you prefer to do rather than bring stuff along.

I'm usually the more well off friend in the situation but I'm also frugal and hate wasting money unnecessarily. Yes I do sometimes have lunch out but it tends to be more of a special occasion/treat. I nearly always have bottles of water and some snacks so we don't HAVE to buy them out (though sometimes we do). It can be quite irritating when you have a profligate companion who turns their nose up at brought along snacks but expects you to join in with their lifestyle choices, bill and all. I do pay up my share, obviously, but I do think "what a bloody waste of money" sometimes.

Few months ago I went to cinema with a new friend and our kids. I asked what I owed for the tickets (she booked) and she said "oh you can get the popcorn, pick and mix and drinks". I obliged but it cost more than the tickets, and most of it ended up on the floor. (I hate seeing food wasted as well - what a miserable cow I am.) If I just took my kids we'd bring our own cans, sweets and tesco popcorn.

I'm still on your side OP but I'm trying to take an objective view of what's going on.

I appreciate this is awkward for both of us, but I notice that it's always expected that I pay for things when we meet. I know our circumstances are different, and you're a good friend, so I'm happy to treat you and the DC, but it's making me feel a bit uncomfortable that it seems to be expected now, and that when the DC ask for things you leave it to me to make the decision, which makes me look like the bad guy if I say no.

I think that's pretty perfect. I'm going to just adjust it a little to:

"Look, I appreciate this is awkward for both of us, but I notice that it's always expected kind of become standard practice that I pay for things when we meet. I know our circumstances are different, and you're a good friend, so I'm happy to treat you and the DC, but it's making me feel a bit uncomfortable that it seems to be expected the norm now, and that when the DC ask for things you leave it to me to make the decision, which makes me look like the bad guy if I say no. I want us to all continue with what I feel is a great friendship for you, I and DC."

I have to say something, and I think that's about as best as it can be phrased. It's not without the risk of losing the friendship though, it's awkward, and embarrassing to have to say it, as many PP have pointed out.

And she will say, "oh, I don't know about that" then all the DC will go "Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaase!!!!!!!!" and she'll look to me for a response, and I tend to say "oh, go on then"
In this situation, she has tried to say no, albeit meekly, without saying no to your DC too because that's awkward. So take the hint and back her up sometimes. You don't ever want to be the bad guy but expect her to be?

Tbh, it sounds a lot like you wouldn't enjoy meeting up at her budget. I'm thinking the comments on packed lunches. I'm sure you could think a little more out of the box on that one.

I'm sure your kids get slushies on lots of occasions. If yours ask for then when you are with her why not say no? They can have one another day. It sounds a bit like she doesn't want to be the bad guy in front of her kids, especially if she has to say no to them a lot.

So she just sits there and waits for you to pay, without even saying thank you? You'd think she'd have more self respect, or at least manners. I think I'd start saying no to spontaneous lunches.

I really understand what you are saying/feel a few posters are missing the point by suggesting you suggest a picnic or otherwise. The point is she should OFFER and isn’t doing so off her own back. That’s what’s causing the annoyance.

I think if you have such a disparity, it can be a bit false from her side to offer every time, knowing full well you are likely to pay. But I do think she should on occasion just bring something herself or insist on paying.

We had a family friend that we took on holiday for 2 weeks. An adult I should say. All expenses, meals, flights and accommodation paid for, and she didn’t offer so much as a cup of coffee. It rankles - I get it.

It’s a very tricky one as if you mention it it will only make the situation more awkward...

I think you need to rein it in when you're out with her, if this is a problem. I'd never have been without water or snacks when I was out with my kids just in case they needed them (as opposed to wanted a slushie or an ice cream or a bag of crisps). If this whole situation is bothering you, you just need to be a little more organised and a little less snooty about a packed lunch, and having drinks with you. Certainly, if you plan to go on a full-blown picnic with your friend, a bring and share approach is best. If you're happy with a £10 contribution to every £140 you spend, I'm sure you'll be happy with a tub of hummous and a pack of pita bread to complement your Fortnum's quiche, quail eggs and strawberries.

I think people are missing this bit:

She always says thank you, and makes sure her DC say thank you too.

I really understand what you are saying/feel a few posters are missing the point by suggesting you suggest a picnic or otherwise. The point is she should OFFER and isn’t doing so off her own back. That’s what’s causing the annoyance.

Yes! I can't have explained myself very well. The solution is not a picnic

We had a family friend that we took on holiday for 2 weeks. An adult I should say. All expenses, meals, flights and accommodation paid for, and she didn’t offer so much as a cup of coffee. It rankles - I get it.

Exactly this. Much smaller scale, but many many occasions.