Who pays

[Courtney555]

If you were significantly better off than a really good friend, and it made no difference to you, whilst they were on a tight budget, would you always pay for coffees, (non extravagant) lunches etc.

I was going to put circumstances, then realised they were irrelevant as we are both nice, decent people, just one of us is really financially comfortable, and the other, for very genuine reasons, has very little money.

I love going out with her and our DC, we deliberately don't pick places with high entry fees (we both have children), but for example, if we go to the park, I'll buy everyone an ice-cream. If we meet for a Starbucks, I'll get the bill.

It's just kind of every time. And it's bugging me a little. She's not being entitled or a CF who could afford to pick up the whole bill herself. £20 I don't notice on a round of coffee and cake, is a tangible part of her weekly disposable income. I think there's an element that she knows it's negligible to me, so feels quite comfortable about it. And I don't begrudge it, I love her to bits, but when it's every time, I just think, once a month, she could say, "let's split it."

It's never anything over say £30, and I'd hate the thought of saying "shall we go halves" and her to feel obliged, then that was the money for her and DC dinner.

She's not a freeloader, truly, she's not. If it sounds like she is, it's my error in how I've worded this. I'm arguing internally, that, "£20/30 doesn't affect me, so what's the problem"...."but then 5 times a month, that's up to £150, which is a lot for her to be ok with accepting as treats"...."but the spend over a month doesn't affect me, so what's the problem"

So, AIBU. If we have a great time, as do our DC, and it's of immaterial consequence for me to pick up the tab for sundries, and very material for her, do I just keep doing it?

Or, just because it's immaterial, doesn't mean it's ok to keep doing it? Or more to the point, because it's a very material amount to her, should she be ok with accepting it on every occasion.

Myself and a family member have very different views here, would like to see general consensus.

(Quick clause, before this runs off on a stealth boast tangent, I hope people have the clarity to see this is not about being "significantly richer than yow" )

It's lifestyle differences. You fancy treating the children to ice crerams, or you fancy having a nice coffee and cake while out. If she were alone or with someone on a similar income, she wouldn't do those things.

However, it makes her look like a killjoy or martyr if she says - you go on, I won't have one. So she goes, has a lovely treat that you pay for and she wouldn't have had otherwise. What else can she do - stop you having what you want because she can't afford it? I am not blaming you at all, I'm just saying there isn't a socially easy way out of this for her.

If you are (as I suspect) the one suggesting these things, just stop. Don't go for coffees, that's not something she can do. Take a flask, go to outdoor spaces, take a pack up.

So for you next outing, why don't you suggest you both take bits to make a picnic. Significantly cheaper and she can chip in in her way. It breaks the cafe habit then.

It's not fair on you and I would never allow somebody to repeatedly pay for things with no return. However, it seems likely that if she were out with her DC, she would just say no to the lollies, but maybe she doesn't feel she can do that when she's out with you and your DC. Is the spending led by you? Could you start saying no lollies/cake today kids - we have treats at home for later?

I imagine you have saved a lot of money during the past few months then?

Cross-post with @wendyhoused and agree with her

Although I do think she should at least offer something sometimes - even if it's the cheapest part of the day (parking or whatever). Or make brownies at home to bring for treats. These suggestions don't help you though, OP!

I can see why it’s annoying, she’s expecting it now.

Time to change the dynamic. Maybe a picnic in the park with both of you contributing. See what she does.

I’d just avoid paying. Stop the habit. Meet immediately after lunch perhaps? Just enjoy the time, there’s no need to buy things. Your children would be fine without treats for one day..

I can see both sides here.

Not quite the same but I used to be in a relationship with someone who had a lot more money than me. He always wanted to go to fancy places which I couldn’t afford to cover even just for myself. When I asked if we could go somewhere cheaper/just stay in and get a takeaway he said “I work hard so I deserve to go to nice places on my time off”. Fair enough but then he made it clear he resented paying for me in these places I would never have chosen to go to. We ended up breaking up as I essentially couldn’t afford to spend time with him! Guess he didn’t like me enough to either pay the money or readjust his tastes.

Equally I have a very wealthy friend who spends a lot of money on us (will pay for the villa on a holiday for example). However it then gets awkward when she then expects us to pay for the meals out in return, as whilst these are a lot cheaper than the villa, they are still much more than we can afford). We’ve just stopped accepting her gestures now as they always come with a price tag that’s beyond our means.

I think the best way forward is to only offer things that you are genuinely happy to provide without any payback at all. Don’t suggest you pay for the tickets and she pays for the snacks as even the snacks might be beyond her budget. Instead, if you’re not happy to pay for her on a particular occasion, only suggest something that is genuinely free. I often go to the park and manage to avoid getting coffee/ice cream/cakes etc. As others have suggested - always say to her beforehand “let’s each bring our own picnic and drinks”. Then nobody needs to go hungry/thirsty.

On the other hand, if she never provides anything for you at all (not just money wise but with practical help, emotional support, loyalty etc) then that does seem off. My rich friend knows I would drop everything for her if she ever had any sort of problem and we invite her round to our house for lunch/dinner frequently. I also often meet her in the park and I bring a flask of coffee whilst she buys her own on the way.

From your opening post I didnt think you were unreasonable. It sounded like she almost expects it now and even if she was in a position to contribute something occasionally then she wouldn't because you can afford it more easily, and that feels like being taken advantage of.

But after reading your updates I do think you're being a bit unreasonable. It's fine as adults to understand that people have different budgets but as you're buying ice creams for your kids I think you're almost deliberately getting into situations where its rude not to get her kids them. Your kids will still enjoy the day without ice cream or lunch out. You aren't really giving her much choice to decline your generosity for examole, if you're putting her in a situation where her kids are going to have to stand and watch yours do whatever activity they can't afford to participate in, on top of the original entrance fee (eg those little moving rides you put a quid in in soft play)

I think this can all be overcome with a bit of planning. Tell your kids not to ask for ice creams as you're having a sundae for pudding. Take some water with you. Meet up earlier so that time doesn't 'run away with you'. Do activities without entrance fees. Find alternative car parks or cycle somewhere. Meet at each others houses. Have a picnic. Tell your children in advance that you're not buying x y and z that day. Claim to have forgotten your wallet. Then see what happens. If she is as happy to see you when you're not suggesting coffees etc then that's fine. If she expects you to bring all the food to a picnic when she could just bring whatever they were going to eat anyway, or if she suggests a coffee even though you haven't then you can distance yourself.

Yes I would and have done it. The way I look at it is friendships are give and take.

I had this friend at a time when I was financially very comfortable but very short on time (now she lives in another country). I always paid when we went out and even loaned her money not expecting it back. But in return she was always there when I needed her.

If you consider this friendship one that you can't put a price on, then you're not paying too much.

She’s a cf. £150 a month! You could be saving that for uni. I would stop as she should be offering.

It would annoy me to always be paying, yes.
I would sometimes just pay for yours, no need to ask 'shall we split?', next time you are at a coffee counter/ice cream van order just for you.
This is what most people do, even with friends.

If you really feel uncomfortable you could turn round and tell her that you weren't sure what she wanted so you'll let her order herself.

I think it would be cruel to not say anything before the next trip out and expect the 'friend' to pay for themselves, when they may not have budgeted for this. That kinder way would be to warn in advance eg suggest a picnic.

Thats a good point about lockdown upthread!
Unless OP is not in the UK?
Have the lunches/coffees/ icecreams/ parking just restarted OP?
If so a great time to say you have thought a lot about your spending during lockdown and going forward you are cutting down on those sort of spends.

Not if that's her attitude.

You could do what me and my friend do which is take it in turns. We try to meet once a month as we're a reasonable distance from each other so one of us will by entrance to a place whilst the other gets the drinks and then the following month the other buys entrance and then I buy drinks. This works well for us because she does earn a lot more than I do but I always feel like I should add my share as I've always been taught to pay my way.

Could this be something you could discuss with your friend?

I think you need to make an effort to avoid situations where you pay. For example, suggest a picnic at the park that way she'll know to bring food for her and DC. Don't feel that you have to get your children and therefore hers an ice-cream. Everyone just eats what they brought. If she can't afford those things and you can then there's not a lot she can do. Treat your children to things when you're out without her if you don't want to pay for the whole troop.

You've had some good advice on here about scaling back the trips out. It does really depend on how this is happening as well. E.g. is she pulling up in her car and popping her hand out for parking money, or are you first in by saying Oh I've bought your parking ticket. Similarly with food and drink, does she get up and order, then stand back waiting for you to pay or do you instigate getting food and drink?

She could be embarrassed by not being able to afford these things or she could be taking the mickey, but I do think it might be good if you could spell out a couple of scenarios where this happens, and how it happens so we can see the dynamic there.

I've been the friend who's better off, and it does rankle when people expect you to pay and don't acknowledge it.

As lovely as she is, she now just thinks that you paying is the done thing. I would also get resentful. Even if she occasionally bought you a bottle of wine or flowers as a thank you it would be better. Don't know what you do about it though! X

I try and "fix" it so we go halves on the cheaper stuff, but I treat them to the more expensive stuff, and I make sure I also suggest free things too.
But we are WAY off £150/month.

I think it’s a good idea for you to ask her to bring along snack and drink for the kids when you’re organising a day out. You’re right it’s the contribution that matters.

I have a friend who gets a spouse allowance from their company which is quite substantial just for frittering so she always insists on buying the coffees and lunches. But I will always insist when it’s my turn even if it’s a cup of tea, it’s hard to get her to accept but I don’t want her to think I take advantage (and i really don’t!)

We spend a lot on our friends, in my experience some of them became expectant and that’s when I stopped. But others would reciprocate at times. I was happy to enable a wonderful social experience for everyone for as long as everyone added to the experience with their skill set. But I think when it becomes expected that’s when it’s time to stop

Thats a good point about lockdown upthread!

surely now that things are reopening is the perfect time to rethink and readjust the situation!

Taking a break during the lockdown has made a lot of people think through.. so not really fair to accuse the OP of lying.

@Courtney555 it would be helpful if you could fill in a few gaps about exactly how she behaves on these occasions. For example, who suggests getting coffees/lunch/ice creams? Is it always you, or is it something you mutually discuss?

Does she just stand back and expect you to pay? Does she ever seem awkward, or try to make any alternative suggestions (ie. You suggest lunch, she says 'oh no we can just get something at home' and you insist it's your treat?)

For the record I don't think you are being unreasonable. It's not about the money it's the principle - she absolutely should at least be offering to pay her share, or to get something else - or at the very minimum expressing her gratitude for your generosity and acknowledging that she isn't able to reciprocate. I don't mean grovelling - I don't think you'd want that! - but showing that she acknowledges and appreciates your kindness.

She shouldn't feel like a lesser citizen because she is in a worse position financially, but it's also not right for her just to accept handouts without acknowledging it or making any attempt to give something back.

I think I will (reluctantly) keep socialising to just picnics now. Covid is a great excuse.

It's very interesting to see it from both sides. For example, I prefer lunch at a restaurant, not lugging a picnic around with me all day. Which made me think about things slightly deeper. I think there's a difference between a picnic, which I'd like, and a packed lunch. If I am having a picnic, I pack the hamper, blankets, make quiches, salads, take strawberries and cream. I'm not going to take a little bag of sandwiches out with me...not because I'm being snobbish, I genuinely wouldn't enjoy it. So then, I'm back to, I've brought a lovely spread for my side, and I let them sit and eat it while she and her DC look on with a sandwich. I think that's unpalatable for both parties. So I'd end up letting her and them tuck into ours.

It's lifestyle incompatibility. Go without (more specifically all DC go without) and have a less enjoyable time, in order to put things on an even field. Not an easy one.