Who pays

[Courtney555]

If you were significantly better off than a really good friend, and it made no difference to you, whilst they were on a tight budget, would you always pay for coffees, (non extravagant) lunches etc.

I was going to put circumstances, then realised they were irrelevant as we are both nice, decent people, just one of us is really financially comfortable, and the other, for very genuine reasons, has very little money.

I love going out with her and our DC, we deliberately don't pick places with high entry fees (we both have children), but for example, if we go to the park, I'll buy everyone an ice-cream. If we meet for a Starbucks, I'll get the bill.

It's just kind of every time. And it's bugging me a little. She's not being entitled or a CF who could afford to pick up the whole bill herself. £20 I don't notice on a round of coffee and cake, is a tangible part of her weekly disposable income. I think there's an element that she knows it's negligible to me, so feels quite comfortable about it. And I don't begrudge it, I love her to bits, but when it's every time, I just think, once a month, she could say, "let's split it."

It's never anything over say £30, and I'd hate the thought of saying "shall we go halves" and her to feel obliged, then that was the money for her and DC dinner.

She's not a freeloader, truly, she's not. If it sounds like she is, it's my error in how I've worded this. I'm arguing internally, that, "£20/30 doesn't affect me, so what's the problem"...."but then 5 times a month, that's up to £150, which is a lot for her to be ok with accepting as treats"...."but the spend over a month doesn't affect me, so what's the problem"

So, AIBU. If we have a great time, as do our DC, and it's of immaterial consequence for me to pick up the tab for sundries, and very material for her, do I just keep doing it?

Or, just because it's immaterial, doesn't mean it's ok to keep doing it? Or more to the point, because it's a very material amount to her, should she be ok with accepting it on every occasion.

Myself and a family member have very different views here, would like to see general consensus.

(Quick clause, before this runs off on a stealth boast tangent, I hope people have the clarity to see this is not about being "significantly richer than yow" )

@drinkstoomuchwine

@pigeon999 calls her abusive and all sorts.

And yes there's an imbalance of power. One that the friend has created and allowed to happen!!!

I’m the poor friend in this scenario and on my turns I take a picnic for everyone and we go to the park and I budget to buy kids ice creams and is a coffee. I manage my turn cheaply, if that makes sense?

I’m the poor friend most of the time in this kind of scenario and I make damn sure I do the driving if I think it’s likely to Occur...

@Courtney555

How many times at the beginning did she say no and you then over ruled her and said "go on, I'll pay". After a few times of this, then I'd probably just look to you to make the decision too.

Interesting point.

I never "over ruled her" or discussed anything in front of the children without talking to her first, and I think my issue is she's almost doing the reverse.

Initially, it would be:

FDC: Mummy can we all have lunch together.
F: Nanny might be coming round later, so...
FDC: Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaase
F: I'll think about it....

The children would then bugger off again, and I'd say to her, "I don't mind getting lunch" at which point she'd call her DC back and say, "ok, we can all have lunch together"

I'm totally ok with that. And also, I wouldn't offer every time.

What seems to have developed is, her skipping the step where, between us, as two adults, decide what we are both comfortable with, then relay that to the children.

She now gives the passive yes, but she's doing so knowing that I'm paying, so it's like she's indirectly saying, "yes, DC you may have lunch on Courtney" without us discussing it. Then leaves it to me to address her children.

Which again, I'm not too fussed about, but I am fussed that she feels ok to do that, for such an extended time now, without once showing anything thoughtful towards me or my DC.

And again (because people really aren't getting it) I don't actually want anything in return. Just for her to show some consideration and offer.

But you're the one trying to change her I feel. You want her to act a certain way, parent her DC a certain way.

You're feeling resentful but really you should not be spending that much money every time. Your poor friend probably feels quite helpless and powerless in such a poverty stricken situation. You hold all the cards being wealthier. You need to limit the trips out. Don't say anything to her along the lines up thread that's hurtful . Are you very lonely? Why do the days morph into afternoons and so much spending by the time it's over? You need to plan better but I do agree with PP that no matter how poor I couldn't continually accept a friend paying all the time even without a token gesture of me paying a little once in a while. Your friendship dynamic sounds quite odd, I think you're both responsible in a way? I'd love to see your friend post her perspective.

What business is it of your family member?

The problem is that you are unhappy with her passive behaviour. As many posters have already said, if they were in your friends position they would make more effort to contribute or not accept so many treats. If she occasionally brought a family sized bag of crisps & a bottle of squash to the park as her turn to provide snacks then you would feel less used. Likewise she could say, ‘you’ve treated me to too many coffees, let’s go back to mine for a cup of tea instead’.

However, she hasn’t done any of this and you’re starting to feel resentful therefore you need to change your behaviour. This is why people are suggesting that you stay within her budget. Your DF hasn’t asked Mumsnet what she could do to carry her share cheaply so we can’t advise her. And if you were happy with continuing to carry the load then you wouldn’t be here!

So, YABU to pay for your friend if it is making you feel used. YANBU to limit your interactions to what you feel comfortable with.

£150 a month is a lot of money... that's not far off £2k a year! I can understand why it's starting to bug you now... I'd be the same. But you clearly care about her & don't want to make things awkward so maybe go for a walk or to the park & bring a picnic instead or have coffee & cake at home in the garden. Then when you do go out it'll be more of a treat rather than something taken for granted. Good luck 🤞 x

This thread got really strange and picnic obsessed there for a while! My favourite comment is "you sound abusive" honestly MN has me howling with these gems!!

OP I hear you and your frustration and I really hope you'll send the message you drafted earlier. I'd add something along the lines of 'I know you don't have the finances to do the things we usually do, so perhaps we could come for tea and a play at your house once in a while?'

If you don't do something to redress the balance (which is essentially what you are talking about) this resentment will either leak out and kill the friendship or explode and kill it

Just a matter of time I'd say

@HollowTalk you seem to have the size of it pretty well. Glad some have the clarity to see I'm not "buying" a friendship, and more question the manners and thoughtfulness in return of someone I feel I've been very thoughtful towards for a very long time now.

I like what you say, the "gosh, I've been doing all the finances and realise I spent £150 on park food etc last month alone!" Because I think whilst she should have stepped in to address her own children asking me for things, she probably doesn't realise this it what it's actually totalling.

I can't really do the "so we're bringing pack ups and the kids will have ice-cream at home" because, honestly, I won't do those things. Essentially because I don't want to, she doesn't either, and that's perfectly fine. I'm getting a little tired of the "my god, you give your children everything, spoilt Tarquins" speech. It's absolutely fine to be out, in the July sun, and buy your kids a 99 with a flake without it meaning they're entitled brats. And people perfectly well know that. So the professionally offended gasps are rather false and can stop now.

I think just by pointing the amount out, I have made her aware that it's not something I'm comfortable with at the level it has become.

So, if her DC ask her for us all to have lunch, and instead of dealing with it herself, she then tries the "ask Courtney" this time, she already knows I'm not comfortable, so I wouldn't feel too bad saying "sorry, we can't all go to lunch together, Mummy and I decided earlier, but if you're hungry and need to go for lunch now, we can meet you back here later, or if you're going home to eat we can see each other tomorrow/weekend/whenever? It's up to Mummy"

If she respects what I've told her, she should tell her children "no" herself and I shouldn't even be involved.

If i was the poor friend I would hate this.

I would invite you to ours, home made treats etc. I also would agree to gI to Starbucks. There are plenty of cheaper options or free places to go.

It would be fine as the occasional treat but not every time

I think your last suggestion works really well!
Definitely try that before going down the speech route as I do think that would end the friendship.

@FinallyHere you've said it perfectly. That's it. It's having what others can't have right in front of them that doesn't sit right with me.

I’ve been the poor friend and the better off friend and I totally get it

NO WAY would I say oh maybe if my child asked me for something I couldn’t afford or didn’t have the money for.

Sorry but she is a CF. It’s possible to be in poverty and still be a CF. Whether she meant to or not she’s taking advantage of you.

OP - unsure why you wanted therfore to ask a load of strangers for their opinions if you didn’t like the (fair and moderate) responses.
I agreed with you at the start, completely changed my mind by the end.

@Courtney555 You got round to what I was thinking in one of your most recent posts:

On the flip side, I wonder if there is an element that if we didn't all go out together, her DC wouldn't get little treats at all. And maybe it is a small part of the reason she comes. And I can't say I blame her for that, if it is the case.

This might be be the best day of the week for her kids, and that will be in great part because you are willing to pay for their treats. She knows this, but I would think it’s a very difficult thing to admit to herself let alone to you, so instead she’s handing control of the situation over to you. She can’t say yes because she can’t afford to pay for things her children have now come to expect on these outings, but doesn’t want to say no and her children miss out on something she can never afford to give them, and is too proud or embarrassed to say this out loud to you. She might think that saying thank you and getting her children to say thank you is enough to show her gratitude and is basically all she can afford to do in her mind. I like the finer things in life too, and always have, but I’ve also been completely skint in my lifetime and slogged on for a few years just about able to buy food for the week, but too proud to ask for help (when I had plenty of family and probably friends who would have been more than willing to do so). Thinking about money and how to afford food & petrol for the week takes up so much of your headspace, you might not realise how much of a big deal it is that you’re giving her and her children a break from it. I feel a little bit sad that your friend and her children won’t have that anymore…

You feel taken for granted.

Sometimes it's your job to offer and her job to say no.

I’ve been the skint friend, in the past, and tbh, never felt I could settle and relax as I was looking out constantly for the chance to jump in to offer to pay. It didn’t help that as this friend was nicely fixed, and would pick where we were going, as she had assumed she would be paying, it’d be somewhere I’d never have gone. Probably equivalent to places the op mentioned, but £30 buys a lot of food shopping when you’re skint, and it was a stretch for me to spend that on one meal. I was pulled up about the situation by this friends oh, and was mortified. I Also used to meet a group of friends for coffee, but started ducking out of going due to the cost. I didn’t have the money to spend, I didn’t want someone to pay for me, Even though they offered, and tbh, I didn’t want to be stressed about whether I’d thanked them enough. I changed it to us having coffee at each other’s houses. Sorted. For your situation op, A takeaway coffee from Greggs is only cheap, so I’d suggest still paying but pay less. That way, it’s more within reach for skint friend to pay now and then. Or just meet at each others homes?

If it's more the "being the bad guy" that is annoying you rather than the money itself, can't you 'redirect' the pleading back to her?
So when they go "can we have an icecream/drink/food to feed the ducks/whatever" and she does her "hmm, I don't know...."(expectant look to you), you just reply (breezily because MN )
"Well we aren't because we're leaving soon/have a big dinner sorted/had ice creams yesterday/I've left my purse behind/they aren't healthy (or whatever reason) but it's up to your mum if you can."

Then it's up to her to say no to her kids, and you're not the bad guy. However if it is something you're willing to pay for it's easy to say yes.

Or even just something as simple as "Oh I don't know, I think they are a bit too expensive/unhealthy, don't you agree [friend]" She's very unlikely to disagree with you and at least then it's two of you being mean mums together rather than just you.

I have a lovely friend who has more income than me and we meet up for lunch every month or so and I know we do this so I budget accordingly so I can either pay for both of us or buy the second lot of drinks - she WOULD pay every time and quite often she argues about who will pay but she understands that I NEED to pay my way because otherwise I won’t meet her for lunch, although I’d still visit her at home.

I'd feel uncomfortable in either position.

I’ve also been out with friends who have less money than me and we’ve neither of us been financially able to spend much as a treat ... but we’ve bought ice lollies from
Iceland or sweets and treats in the pound shop and then gone to the park and played football or bat and ball with the children.

OP you sound like one of my friends who is much more financially well off that many people (I sort of wonder if you are her) and she always tries to pay for everything. I feel uncomfortable with this even though I know she means it. There is third friend who I don’t see much but who seems to literally expect her to pay for everything and will order champagne etc expecting her to pay, which she does. I see this as the sort of thing that breeds bitterness.

I suppose whilst I’m managing, I’m not well off so I can afford a round of ice creams etc and do so.

You’ve kind of created the precedent but now seem to resent it, you can raise it or not. Up to you. Difficult to do though without affecting your friendship.

Sorry if this has already been suggested, but if she is as good a friend and person as you believe her to be, just speak to her. Even if you suggest once a month for her to pay the whole bill or to go halves, it sounds reasonable enough. And if she comes back with "well you can afford it" then you know she is in fact a freeloader

Yanbu. If I was your friend, I would offer to pay each time, and if we were due to meet up and I was too short of cash, I would mention so before we met up.

I had a friend who like you was far better off than I.

However, just because of the way I was raised, I'd buy the little things.

So while he may get maccies, Domino's, Starbucks, etc, I got the bottle of coke, or.similar.

For.me it was a commitment (yes we were both single and no kids) I was on disability benefits, and he worked. .... Not wasn't that sort of relationship ... We just became extremely good mates.

I would just buy little things, but also if he came round to mine at trea time, I'd include him or go get bag of chips and stretch what I was cooking.

Sometimes he'd call and say want Dom's, it's on offer (so both eating more for less than 1 person).

I never mentioned it, and he never mentioned it, although sometimes, he'd say ... If we have maccies, you have to get your own.

He had 2 scales of skint... One was his version. Which was he could only get himself a Domino's the other was he couldn't get even get one Dom's! lol

As I said, although we never talked about it, both of us knew if he couldn't he'd say so, and I'd help by chipping in the small things.... Or getting vouchers so it was a lot cheaper

I don't think you needed us to tell you what to do or say, as your best mate (other than her) had already said it .