Who pays

[Courtney555]

If you were significantly better off than a really good friend, and it made no difference to you, whilst they were on a tight budget, would you always pay for coffees, (non extravagant) lunches etc.

I was going to put circumstances, then realised they were irrelevant as we are both nice, decent people, just one of us is really financially comfortable, and the other, for very genuine reasons, has very little money.

I love going out with her and our DC, we deliberately don't pick places with high entry fees (we both have children), but for example, if we go to the park, I'll buy everyone an ice-cream. If we meet for a Starbucks, I'll get the bill.

It's just kind of every time. And it's bugging me a little. She's not being entitled or a CF who could afford to pick up the whole bill herself. £20 I don't notice on a round of coffee and cake, is a tangible part of her weekly disposable income. I think there's an element that she knows it's negligible to me, so feels quite comfortable about it. And I don't begrudge it, I love her to bits, but when it's every time, I just think, once a month, she could say, "let's split it."

It's never anything over say £30, and I'd hate the thought of saying "shall we go halves" and her to feel obliged, then that was the money for her and DC dinner.

She's not a freeloader, truly, she's not. If it sounds like she is, it's my error in how I've worded this. I'm arguing internally, that, "£20/30 doesn't affect me, so what's the problem"...."but then 5 times a month, that's up to £150, which is a lot for her to be ok with accepting as treats"...."but the spend over a month doesn't affect me, so what's the problem"

So, AIBU. If we have a great time, as do our DC, and it's of immaterial consequence for me to pick up the tab for sundries, and very material for her, do I just keep doing it?

Or, just because it's immaterial, doesn't mean it's ok to keep doing it? Or more to the point, because it's a very material amount to her, should she be ok with accepting it on every occasion.

Myself and a family member have very different views here, would like to see general consensus.

(Quick clause, before this runs off on a stealth boast tangent, I hope people have the clarity to see this is not about being "significantly richer than yow" )

Of I could comfortably afford it (which you can) and I still wanted to go to places that cost money (which you do), and she had always paid he way when she could afford it (which she did), no, I wouldn't grudge paying for a few ice creams or coffee while we were out.

The answer to your swimming analogy would be to find a different activity that you both like. Or accept that fundamentally you want different things and agree to part ways.

I never (even when they are normally open) generally go to coffee shops. If I had a friend that liked going to them, I might agree to meet her in one occasionally, but if she insisted in always meeting in one, we would soon part our ways. I think this is OP's issue with friend. OP always wants to go to the metaphorical coffee shop. OP's friend doesn't, but isn't prepared to say that this means they can't meet at all. So she's left with sitting in the coffee shop with no coffee or letting OP pay.

@U2HasTheEdge

I had a friend who I used to pay for often.

I didn't mind.

Until we were out and I was a pound short for an ice-cream for my child. She gave me it, then asked me to transfer it back into her bank account when I got home. I thought she was joking, but nope, she wanted it back.

OP YANBU

Some people have got a cheek!!

How many times at the beginning did she say no and you then over ruled her and said "go on, I'll pay". After a few times of this, then I'd probably just look to you to make the decision too.

Interesting point.

I never "over ruled her" or discussed anything in front of the children without talking to her first, and I think my issue is she's almost doing the reverse.

Initially, it would be:

FDC: Mummy can we all have lunch together.
F: Nanny might be coming round later, so...
FDC: Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaase
F: I'll think about it....

The children would then bugger off again, and I'd say to her, "I don't mind getting lunch" at which point she'd call her DC back and say, "ok, we can all have lunch together"

I'm totally ok with that. And also, I wouldn't offer every time.

What seems to have developed is, her skipping the step where, between us, as two adults, decide what we are both comfortable with, then relay that to the children.

She now gives the passive yes, but she's doing so knowing that I'm paying, so it's like she's indirectly saying, "yes, DC you may have lunch on Courtney" without us discussing it. Then leaves it to me to address her children.

Which again, I'm not too fussed about, but I am fussed that she feels ok to do that, for such an extended time now, without once showing anything thoughtful towards me or my DC.

And again (because people really aren't getting it) I don't actually want anything in return. Just for her to show some consideration and offer.

OP. People have given you solutions you can go to each others house or do a park play date and cut it short so you are not spending so much it’s not difficult.

@Courtney555

How many times at the beginning did she say no and you then over ruled her and said "go on, I'll pay". After a few times of this, then I'd probably just look to you to make the decision too.

Interesting point.

I never "over ruled her" or discussed anything in front of the children without talking to her first, and I think my issue is she's almost doing the reverse.

Initially, it would be:

FDC: Mummy can we all have lunch together.
F: Nanny might be coming round later, so...
FDC: Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaase
F: I'll think about it....

The children would then bugger off again, and I'd say to her, "I don't mind getting lunch" at which point she'd call her DC back and say, "ok, we can all have lunch together"

I'm totally ok with that. And also, I wouldn't offer every time.

What seems to have developed is, her skipping the step where, between us, as two adults, decide what we are both comfortable with, then relay that to the children.

She now gives the passive yes, but she's doing so knowing that I'm paying, so it's like she's indirectly saying, "yes, DC you may have lunch on Courtney" without us discussing it. Then leaves it to me to address her children.

Which again, I'm not too fussed about, but I am fussed that she feels ok to do that, for such an extended time now, without once showing anything thoughtful towards me or my DC.

And again (because people really aren't getting it) I don't actually want anything in return. Just for her to show some consideration and offer.

OP you are creating a situation where you always "win" the argument in this AIBU. Lets assume DF cannot say Yes as she has no money.

DF says "Maybe" -so you feel obliged to pay to avoid disappointing the DC .
DF says "No" so your boiling, redfaced, hungry DC have to go without.
Can you imagine the AIBU?
"My DF said no to my DC and they didnt even get a drink. Fummin"

You can change this dynamic easily and diplomatically by suggesting packing drinks and snacks/ lunch.
Just a normal picnic.

But you dont want to.
You want to continue argueing 🖐

Hmmn it really is a tricky one and I guess it's mostly a matter of intent (on her behalf) and willing (on yours). As far as I can see from what you've written she doesn't come across as you say any type of freeloader or that she expects it per se but I suppose what has happened inadvertently is that it's sort of become the unsaid dynamic and it's created a bit of a precedent rightly or wrongly. I've no doubt she has no negative intent and it sounds as though you aren't overly upset by it but it's enough that you've shall we say noticed. Money's a really interesting topic in friendships. It does change the dynamic even when you try so hard for if not to. It's interesting as my mum is the lesser well off party with her best friend and she finds this often happens with them that her best friend will pay for almost everything but the difference is my mum always offers every time and it sounds as tho your friend doesn't or has at least stopped doing it. I can totally imagine it's just something she may have been conscious of in the beginning but possibly has become a little blind to now or as you say maybe just figures it isn't too big a deal for you and has just assumed if you keep offering you're ok about it. I'm quite conscious of fairness so even when I have s family member or friend who is better off than me I still feel uncomfortable acceptingtoo much. So I may graciously accept the odd cup of coffee but it became frequent then I would politely decline or maybe suggest an alternative such as meeting at my house for a homemade coffee and cake rather than a cafe. In a non judgemental way (I promise!) I just wonder why she hasn't/doesn't. One possibility especially if you don't believe her to be consciously taking advantage is that she may be feeling uncomfortable herself in the completely opposite way and similarly not feel able to mention it. I've now reached a point in life where I'm by no means wealthy but my partner and I are quite financially comfortable and within reason we can go out for dinner, buy coffees our, treat family occasionally etc without undue worry. I used to so a fair bit of treating myself especially with my mum and siblings who all earn considerably less than me until it occurred to me one day when my mum spoke about her friend paying for everything etc that it may create awkwardness for them. I think when your income escalates to a certain level you can (and I am v guilty of this) take the ability to do some of these things a bit for granted and forget that the odd coffee or meal out is not actually commonplace for everyone and for some on w tight budget these things may be once in a blue moon. And so if you're on a day trip and find yourself at a point where you might stop for a snack coffee etc, maybe it's what you and your kids would do, but she may be feeling panicky inside that she can't afford it and as money is such an awkward thing to discuss even with close friends she may sort of accept you paying as she doesn't know what else to say in the moment. I know you mentioned that you choose places with good entry fees etc but in my experience it's the little things that are the difference for ppl with varying incomes like the refreshments, pressies for kids when they've gone on a day trip, a ticket on a seaside ride wtf, that add up. I am guessing you don't really want to have a long drawn out discussion about it or make her feel uncomfortable so I wonder if you could try some more passive techniques? Like starting to make suggestions say for a walk round a local country park with you both bringing packed lunches or perhaps you could make an excuse (other half permitting!) Where you "blame" them and say "X thinks we're spending too much money on bits and pieces while we're out so I'm trying to be a bit better with spending at the mo...shall we...take a pack lunch today/meet up after lunch/have a tea and chat round mine" etc? You get the jist. Not sure how helpful this is sorry x

I’ve read the full thread and to be honest - if it was a good friend and I could afford it easily, I would keep paying as I enjoyed their company. You said she always says thank you.

The fact that it’s annoying you/you don’t want to compromise by ‘swimming in the sea’ (to use your analogy) suggests that you would rather lose the friendship that the money (which is absolutely ok. Your prerogative!).

For example: I have several friends who earn considerably less than me. Due to financial limitations, they prefer to drink in Wetherspoons pubs. I don’t like Wetherspoons pubs but I want to spend time with them so I either go to the Wetherspoons or will say ‘Come to mine for dinner and drinks’ (which I will supply) or will suggest a different venue but make it clear it is my treat. Compromise!

Ok, I'm almost angry now.

since she moved, she's always come here. And now not at all since her hours got cut. Despite me saying all the time we can come over and just have a cuppa, we're happy to do the full journey, she always says let's go out.

This!! Freaking this! OP, she is a CF of the highest order. I am sure she doesn't have the cash, as she says, I don't think this is a lie, however she is extremely comfortable for you to pay for everything, she wants to go out and she definitely wants YOU to treat her DC as you treat YOURS. Except that you're not supposed to raise them! She is!

Just so I make myself clear, I don't blame her for not having the money, obviously, but for accepting this cringe-worthy situation over and over and I believe she's actually USING her children for it as they're always the ones asking the lunch/food/snacks questions.

Honestly, if I were in her shoes I'd never dare do that. A friend treating me occasionally (say once a month or so?!) is one thing, a friend subsidising my lifestyle preferences is a whole different thing.

£150/month? That could go into a beautiful fund for your children that they could use later jn their lives for whatever or even for treating yourself!

You need to talk to her OP. Asap.

Sorry OP just wanted to say hadn't read all Msgs in thread before I posted my answer so I appreciate some of my answer may not fit your thinking now but hope some of its useful x

Courtney I think you are completely oblivious of your friend’s real life.

Poverty is hard. It takes a huge mental load to keep a family fed and healthy on benefits. It’s degrading, emotionally exhausting and it’s hard to escape. Her hours are cut, she can’t put petrol in the “old banger” you mentioned she has. She’s had to move to a worse rented property that she’s too embarrassed to have friends in.

It’s all well and good for people to say “she could bake a cake” “she could offer to pay once in a while” etc etc. I doubt she’s got the headspace to think of that when you describe the changes in circumstances she’s in. Coronavirus will only be making things much worse for her in the coming months with all the job losses and cutbacks.

If, for the sake of enjoying time with a friend, you can’t lower yourself to a sandwich and bottle of water in the park, you don’t value her.

You have all the power. Meet after lunch - no meal problems. Take water bottles. No need for slushies. And definitely treat the kids to an ice cream, because that’s what friends do.

She's clearly very cash poor at the moment, and totally embarrassed both by that and her dependence on you.

If you want to break the circuit say No to her or your children. And engage her in the decision - when the children ask, say something - or maybe just say "No, we're going home and you can have a proper lunch at home." If her kids kick off, that's really for her to deal with.

Or compromise: take sandwiches & a drink. Not everything needs to be an Insta-perfect-picnic.

Or a white lie about you & your husband discussing cutting back on incidental spending because you're saving for something or other., or against COVID redundancy or something like that.

Poverty is hard. It takes a huge mental load to keep a family fed and healthy on benefits. It’s degrading, emotionally exhausting and it’s hard to escape. Her hours are cut, she can’t put petrol in the “old banger” you mentioned she has. She’s had to move to a worse rented property that she’s too embarrassed to have friends in

This. A decade of austerity; the insufficiency of Universal Credit. The regular victim-blaming of 'benefit scroungers.' All this must be very exhausting for her.

DF says "No" so your boiling, redfaced, hungry DC have to go without.

I can't keep trying to explain this, for you to keep resoundingly misunderstanding.

MY DC are told yes, or no, by me. As I see appropriate. If I say yes to my DC I automatically include her and DC as it would be unkind not too. This is FINE. Me. My DC. Them asking me. My choice to include everyone.

If she says no to her children asking her something, my DC aren't affected. But. She. Doesn't. Say. No.

She indirectly says "I won't stop Courtney paying, ask her the question and see if she lets you down"

My children don't ask her for anything. She directs her children to ask me.

She directs her children to ask me

You're going to have to say No, to her children. What might happen? Would it be really bad? It might be a relief for her, maybe. From what you say, she's embarrassed or humiliated by her poverty, ad has just about given up. She doesn't know that you're starting to resent her passivity.

She may be passive because the fight has just gone out of her. Poverty can do that, particularly if she hasn't always been poor, or brought up poor.

Unless her friend is working less than 16 hours a week she shouldn’t be struggling to the extent that she can’t afford to bring drinks and a few snacks from home?. It does seem OP is in a different world so it is hard to work out if her friend is really struggling.

I don't deny poverty is hard. As another PP said, it's not like anyone's trying to blame her for having no money.

I think I agree with the vast majority though. I wouldn't continue to take and take, on such a regular, ongoing basis, with the justification that I knew my friend could afford it. That wouldn't be ok with me. I'd feel like I was taking advantage. Not on the odd occasion. But this is not an odd occasion.

On the flip side, I wonder if there is an element that if we didn't all go out together, her DC wouldn't get little treats at all. And maybe it is a small part of the reason she comes. And I can't say I blame her for that, if it is the case.

I think I'm going to limit meeting up to once a month. It's not just me that likes nice things, she does too. It seems strange that whilst everyone seems to want to berate me for not wanting to "swim in the sea" just because it's free, doesn't mean she'd like it one bit either. And I could tell you now, she wouldn't.

So, I guess we continue as we are, on a much less frequent schedule. That way, we all get to enjoy doing the things we all like. And I don't mind footing the bill, if it's once a month.

Even if you limit the trips to once a month, you'll still feel that resentment that your friend doesn't reciprocate in anyway and that her children will continue to defer to you.

Your friend probably does enjoy the finer things in life, probably because she knows you are paying for it. If you stopped, she would have to cut her cloth accordingly.

I think when you go out, you should agree boundaries before hand eg you aren't having lunch out. That way, if her children ask you, just refer them back to her.

She sounds like a friend who is prepared to swallow her own pride so that her kids (and her) can enjoy nice things.

I think you need to get better at saying no to her kids. Stop assuming that her deferring is a tacit yes, and read it as her deferring to the person who would be paying. It IS your decision, and she can't read your mind.

How does she phrase it when the children ask you?

I wonder if there is an element that if we didn't all go out together, her DC wouldn't get little treats at all. And maybe it is a small part of the reason she comes. And I can't say I blame her for that, if it is the case.
This is what I meant several pages ago. It might not be what she is actively planning. It might just be really hard for her to deliberately stop it from happening. She might also be afraid to pop this little happy bubble by acknowledging that it exists in any way - e.g. by trying to pay you back immaterially.

I doubt it's doing her any good, though. Her children might not notice, but if she can't even bear to see the inside of your home, it sounds like she isn't really happy.

It's all just speculation, though. I find it hard to imagine getting into this situation - I adapt to the other person's level and don't find that hard to bear as you do. So difficult to give you any advice. Maybe just gradually wind down the relationship? Maybe you both need some new friends.

She probably isn’t making the gesture to offer to pay because if you took her up on it, she couldn’t!
I don’t think you’re all in the wrong here but it is certainly clear you haven’t experienced poverty. And that’s not your fault. But there’s a reason that she doesn’t want you coming around to her place - she knows you well enough to know what you would think of it.

She probably isn’t making the gesture to offer to pay because if you took her up on it, she couldn’t!

And if you read the thread, I'm not suggesting she makes an offer to pay.

You had my sympathy until you explained your picnic scenario.

You're not willing to make quite minor changes to your lifestyle to make your friend comfortable. Whilst I agree that picnics aren't the answer, the analogy is very telling. You aren't willing to "suffer" the minor reduction in luxury that eating sandwiches and a bag of crisps, an apple and squash would be compared to quiches and strawberries and cream, once in a while, to make things more comfortable between the pair of you.

I'm sorry, but that is just really shitty of you. So what if you enjoy sandwiches slightly less than quiche? It's usually the gathering around the table/picnic blanket with friends that's the important part, not what's actually on the table. Nobody's saying you can't have your quiches and strawberries and cream picnics - you could go for them when you go for a day out with your own family and not hers, or with people who have the same amount of disposable income.

The fact that you're not willing to endure even the slightest of drop in the type of packed lunch food you eat, says to me that you're right about the lifestyle incompatibilities"- she can't afford yours, and you aren't willing to meet her at the level that she can afford.

Sounds like a good plan. If she wants to see you more often then let her take the lead.