Who pays

[Courtney555]

If you were significantly better off than a really good friend, and it made no difference to you, whilst they were on a tight budget, would you always pay for coffees, (non extravagant) lunches etc.

I was going to put circumstances, then realised they were irrelevant as we are both nice, decent people, just one of us is really financially comfortable, and the other, for very genuine reasons, has very little money.

I love going out with her and our DC, we deliberately don't pick places with high entry fees (we both have children), but for example, if we go to the park, I'll buy everyone an ice-cream. If we meet for a Starbucks, I'll get the bill.

It's just kind of every time. And it's bugging me a little. She's not being entitled or a CF who could afford to pick up the whole bill herself. £20 I don't notice on a round of coffee and cake, is a tangible part of her weekly disposable income. I think there's an element that she knows it's negligible to me, so feels quite comfortable about it. And I don't begrudge it, I love her to bits, but when it's every time, I just think, once a month, she could say, "let's split it."

It's never anything over say £30, and I'd hate the thought of saying "shall we go halves" and her to feel obliged, then that was the money for her and DC dinner.

She's not a freeloader, truly, she's not. If it sounds like she is, it's my error in how I've worded this. I'm arguing internally, that, "£20/30 doesn't affect me, so what's the problem"...."but then 5 times a month, that's up to £150, which is a lot for her to be ok with accepting as treats"...."but the spend over a month doesn't affect me, so what's the problem"

So, AIBU. If we have a great time, as do our DC, and it's of immaterial consequence for me to pick up the tab for sundries, and very material for her, do I just keep doing it?

Or, just because it's immaterial, doesn't mean it's ok to keep doing it? Or more to the point, because it's a very material amount to her, should she be ok with accepting it on every occasion.

Myself and a family member have very different views here, would like to see general consensus.

(Quick clause, before this runs off on a stealth boast tangent, I hope people have the clarity to see this is not about being "significantly richer than yow" )

What InstantMango said. You have shifted from she should chip in to the expensive things that you like (which she can’t afford to do) to she should offer to work in your garden.

I wouldn’t want you as my friend.

Find some mates who’ve got cash too, and leave her to find someone else.

But can't you just say no to her DC? Just say, we're not having one today but if you want one I'm sure your mummy will get you one?

This is what I really struggle with. The fact she passively approves lunch/drinks/whatever by essentially saying "maybe" then passing their attention to me. Then I'm kind of on the spot. There's nothing stopping her from saying no. Then it's my call, to say discreetly to her "it's cool, I'll get this.". I don't think it's right that she's implying "yes" then it's down to me to tell her own children "no". It should be the other way around, except I would tell her directly, for her to decide if she was ok with that.

I can't say "I'm sure mummy will get you one later" because I know she can't.

If I was in her position, I would try and repay you in other ways, like inviting you round for lunch/baking you a cake etc. I wouldn't be comfortable accepting so many treats from one person whatever the financial situation.

I'm not sure what you can do about it from your end though!

abracd I agree with your post. You are incompatible as friends, you are not willing to give up the finer things in life, and she will never be able to keep up with you.

Make some friends that can enjoy activities with you and also pay their way.

@yearinyearout

Exactly

I keep rereading this with shock. You say you have googled UC but have you really thought about it. SHE HAS NO SPARE CASH. SHE CANT CHIP IN.

STOP doing things which she can’t afford and the problem goes away.

@Cherrysoup

Equally I have a very wealthy friend who spends a lot of money on us (will pay for the villa on a holiday for example). However it then gets awkward when she then expects us to pay for the meals out in return, as whilst these are a lot cheaper than the villa, they are still much more than we can afford). We’ve just stopped accepting her gestures now as they always come with a price tag that’s beyond our means.

Then why accept a huge thing like the villa rental in the first place? She must have known you couldn’t afford it, just don’t go.

If I am having a picnic, I pack the hamper, blankets, make quiches, salads, take strawberries and cream. I'm not going to take a little bag of sandwiches out with me...not because I'm being snobbish, I genuinely wouldn't enjoy it. So then, I'm back to, I've brought a lovely spread for my side, and I let them sit and eat it while she and her DC look on with a sandwich. I think that's unpalatable for both parties. So I'd end up letting her and them tuck into ours.

See, I had sympathy for you up til this. Now you just sound snobby and spoilt. Hamper, strawberries and cream? Come on! I’d be there with my scotch eggs and tubs of home made pasta and that was at Ascot! Lifestyle incompatibility?! Fml, if she’s a friend you don’t want to lose, then try matching what she would do, why make her feel like shit?

Absolutely I think after reading this it’s OP that is the main problem. Although I think her friend is out of order for coming along knowing her own finances.

I can see why the situation annoys you op but only you can change this.

You can say something to her - this is likely to upset and end the friendship.

You can start to say no to the little requests her dcs or yours make. Bring her into the decision so its not all on you 'Mummy is right, not today kids'

You can change where/what time you meet. Instead of meeting at 10 and risking still being there at lunch meet at 1 or 1.30 and if you want to treat your children to lunch do so first then enjoy time with your friends.

Or you start brining snacks or food. There is a wide spectrum of food your DC and you might like that isn't a full on feast full of quiches and strawberries and cream. A nice tasty sandwich with artisan bread and vegetable crisps for you and cheap sliced with cheese and aldi crisps for her - kids really won't notice the difference and I find it hard to believe you would be lowering your oh so high standards that much.

The fact is you have different disposable incomes so you either always pay, always do activities she can afford or the sensible things is to do a mixture but accept that you pay for her and her DC when you are not doing something cheap or they don't get.

I have a friend who is very money savy and always prepared so brings drinks and snacks when we meet. I am not as organised so mine either don't get or I might buy them something. We met for a walk this week. She suggested ice creams but had brought aldi bottles for her and her dc. I bought my dc and myself a can of pop. It wasn't an issue.

I have friends like op (well used to anyway!)

There is base expectation that they can buy everything, including friendships on their own terms.

Now it is niggling but still, the friend may love to picnic or do other thins that don't involve ice creams or lunches out but can't assert herself in the friendship because the imbalance now of power.

Give your DC pocket money - before you go give them the choice of using it to pay for a lolly at the park or going to the shop on the way home where they can buy lots more for their pocket money. You can then say kids have pocket money so you have an out for saying no to the ice cream

For the picnic - why don’t you say you will bring sandwiches and ask your friend to bring crisps or to bake & bring a cake - then you will both be contributing but to a level that suits both of your budgets (bringing nice sandwiches for all will be cheaper than lunch for you & your DC)

Then your friend will be bringing something and you won’t feel you are being taken advantage of.

It's not your problem that she's skint, and she's happily allowed you to cover her for months, so actually, she can prepare her own food. She's only has the same as you, as long as you're paying. Well, now, you're not paying. So she shouldn't expect to have the same as you.

You seem to not like her being poor now.
You say she was always fair and paid her way until her hours were cut, you want to carry on living the way you like (slushies, quiche, nice lunches) but she can no longer afford it, she very grateful, her and her kids always thank you. But you seem to want her to do jobs to pay you back (she can't afford petrol, how can she get to yours to do your gardening?).
You don't want to change your way of living, i know its not your problem, but she probably would love to pay for herself, probably didn't want to move house away from all her and her children's friends so that she barely gets to see anyone, and would love to buy her kids an ice cream, evidently, she can't.
For me, her whole standard of living has dropped considerably, she is struggling, its hard, and you can't drop your standard for a few hours to be more considerate to your friend.
No, i don't think you should pay for everything if you are resenting it.
But neither do I think you should have massive buffets, treats and say lets got to X knowing she can't afford it and you don't want to pay for it.
You think cheese sandwiches and crisps are a bit shit, your friend might think that too, but can't afford it.
Her whole life and her DCs lives have been turned up side down and now are super skint and embarrassed by where they live, and you can't show a bit of solidarity by having a walk with a cheese sandwich rather than quiche and strawberries.
If she was a friend just the chatting and companionship for the day would be enough, you don't need all the extras that you keep insisting you need.
Maybe she hasn't got time to offer to do your garden (which also sounds pretty entitled!) she's raising her children and probably looking for a better job.
You keep saying she should offer you a tenner. What are you not grasping that some people genuinely don't have a tenner? Alot of people have been it that position, more people will be thanks to covid and redundancies.
Its not a nice life, and your friend saying I don't like paying for you, but living your life for a few hours isn't enjoyable so I don't really want to do that either so I can't give up my Starbucks, so can you weed my garden so I feel like things are more even is probably not a nice conversation to have.

I don't think you like your friend now she's poor.

People are being ridiculous now.

I don't know what you mean Crispy. This is definitely not about manners and thoughtfulness. No no.

It's definitely about me calculating the amount I've spent, so I can invoice the equivalent in man hours from her and her DC to toil in my garden, whilst my children crack whips with one hand, cramming their faces with wagyu beef with the other.

Clear??!

You sound abusive

The thing is, if she says no and then you offer, she is teaching her children that her no doesn't count! So if she does say no, you kind of have to say no too, and of course you might have wanted to say yes...so it gets really complicated. She really can't say yes; no might mean she puts you in aa annoying place with your dc; so looking to you is kind of all she can do, I think?

@Courtney555

She looks to you to say yes or no because she can't pay!

So she can't tell her own children no then? Why?

So if you say yes to your children

Her children.

She's indirectly telling HER children yes, with the "oooh, I don't know." That's a "well it's not a no from Mummy, let's see if Courtney let's you down"

Because it's fucking shit when your kids can't have something because you can't afford it but the other kids you are with are enjoying an ice cream/slushy/whatever as your kids look on empty handed.

You need to say no to all the kids as PP's have suggested.

It would be unkind to buy your own kids a treat when out with her & her kids if they have to go without as their mother can't afford it.

My friend would never behave the way you think it's acceptable to & if she did we wouldn't be friends - not because of the disparity in our incomes & she didn't want to be friends the poor person but because I wouldn't want to be friends with an arsehole which is how you're coming across with your "oh god I couldn't eat a sandwich" attitude

I think the only way to resolve this is by you taking some control. It seems she doesn’t see this as an issue so without you doing something different then nothing is going to change apart from the resentment building.
So you could do any only the following:

• have a chat with her about it and tell her how you feel. Yes it will be awkward but hopefully it will resolve it.
• change where you go / what you do so additional purchases are not needed.
• you say no when asked. She’s not going to change without chatting to her so you’ll have to say no.
• take food with you. The need for a full on picnic spread is ridiculous but it doesn’t mean you have the take sandwiches. Take some quiche and salad rather than a whole spread. Take snacks for you and your kids and tell her you’re doing that.

Or stop seeing her.

Having read all your updates, which imply you don't think the world of your friend quite as much as you implied at the beginning, I'm intrigued by this in your OP:
Myself and a family member have very different views here, would like to see general consensus.

Are you being manipulated to see your friend in a very different light to how you were seeing the situation before? Because at first it sounded like she's a great friend who's embarrassed by her financial situation and very grateful that you are generous to her DC, and now it sounds like you're arguing that she is a CF.

I had a friend who I used to pay for often.

I didn't mind.

Until we were out and I was a pound short for an ice-cream for my child. She gave me it, then asked me to transfer it back into her bank account when I got home. I thought she was joking, but nope, she wanted it back.

OP YANBU

You need to say no to all the kids as PP's have suggested.

It would be unkind to buy your own kids a treat when out with her & her kids if they have to go without as their mother can't afford it.

Am I not saying this right?

In can repeat it again?....

I do say no to MY children. She never says no to hers.

So it's then down to me to either disappoint her children or pay for everyone. On no occasion do mine get something without me getting the same for hers.

SHE should be telling her own children no. Not "yes from me, let's see if Courtney says yes" every time.

I don't know why this is so difficult for people to grasp?

It comes down to this: you don't want to have days out without spending money on treats for your own kids, you don't want to pay for treats for her kids any more, and you don't want to pay for your kids while watching hers go without. But these desires are incompatible, so you will have to choose.

Is it unreasonable to wish that she would reciprocate with an invitation occasionally? No. But she doesn't, and that is under her control not yours. So either you accept her the way she is, or you modify the situation to avoid the issue (by opting for cheaper ways of seeing one another like going to one another's houses for coffee while the kids play, or feeding the ducks but taking your own DC home before it's lunchtime), or you stop seeing her altogether. It's up to you.

@Courtney555

Whilst this has gone off on a bit of a weird picnic tangent, I'm very interested.

The general opinion seems to be, I should lower the standards as such that me and my own DC don't enjoy what we have, so we don't offend someone else, who we have financed, specifically in this manner, for months.

The alternative is keep funding that someone else.

She seems to be viewed as more important than me and my DC. "Either make your day less enjoyable, or fund her day out"

I'm interested as to why the view isn't, you bring what you want. No, she perhaps won't have matched the tangible value of what you bring, but actually, what you feed your own children is not her concern. It's not your problem that she's skint, and she's happily allowed you to cover her for months, so actually, she can prepare her own food. She's only has the same as you, as long as you're paying. Well, now, you're not paying. So she shouldn't expect to have the same as you.

You're not her friend, are you OP.

You can either belittle and dismiss your good friend to win an internet argument (who the fuck wants friends like that).

OR, you actually think of your friend like this (who the fuck wants friends like that).

Your friend should be refusing your treats - I've often been the skint one, so skint that there could be no reciprocal cake or nice biscuits. I just turned down these offers and went home instead. Job done.

But don't fucking offer the treats if it pisses you off like this! You have 3 choices:
lower yourself to living like someone poor occasionally

Keep paying

Say something and lose your friend (because you come across as thinking your friend is scummy and rude. Unless you hide this better, the friendship will be gone).

Trying to guilt her in to paying for things she can't afford is not an option. Forget it. She sounds dirt poor, not 'ooh I'd better not' poor. There is no leway in dirt poor.

I actually think your friend is being rude, if she can really afford nothing, she should make that clear and leave before lunch.

But you? You don't seem rude - You seem snobby, entitled, and dismissive of your friends troubles. Being rich doesn't make up for that.

Nobody is saying you can't have nice things. People are suggesting you had a day where she doesn't feel like the poor relation. Nobody wants to be skint. I have a wealthy friend. I often go and stay with her. She knows for example that I couldn't afford to eat out in some of the places that she likes to so she has a pretty simple solution. We don't go! I do however stay with her and she makes me dinner etc. She doesn't then want me to do her gardening. We have a lovely time together. She appreciates that I've spent money on fuel to drive all the way to her house. She doesn't have a mental list of all the things I owe her.
I also think you are doing your children a disservice here, they may well enjoy a sandwich in the park. But if you're unhappy with it and think it's crappy then so will they.
Your swimming analogy again only gives 2 options. The most useful option is don't swim when you're all together because you can't all afford to do the same thing. You aren't happy to pay for your friend to do it that's absolutely fine. Take your own DC swimming another time.
It seems like you want friends who can afford to do the things you want to do. Go and make those friends then.
Your friend has absolutely no idea that you want her to pay you back for the things you've done for her. Send her your £150 a month bill so she can clear her debt and move on.

How many times at the beginning did she say no and you then over ruled her and said "go on, I'll pay". After a few times of this, then I'd probably just look to you to make the decision too.

@Russiandolleyes yes, I agree with you, I do think the world of her, but my opinion on how I see this situation has altered having had various things pointed out to me on this thread.

I don't think she's being a flagrant CF. But my opinion has definitely shifted now I've seen how many people would feel uncomfortable continually allowing their friend to pick up the tab, without any kind gesture in return.

I think people are missing the point that I don't want the tiny gesture. It's that it's never been thought of.