Who pays

[Courtney555]

If you were significantly better off than a really good friend, and it made no difference to you, whilst they were on a tight budget, would you always pay for coffees, (non extravagant) lunches etc.

I was going to put circumstances, then realised they were irrelevant as we are both nice, decent people, just one of us is really financially comfortable, and the other, for very genuine reasons, has very little money.

I love going out with her and our DC, we deliberately don't pick places with high entry fees (we both have children), but for example, if we go to the park, I'll buy everyone an ice-cream. If we meet for a Starbucks, I'll get the bill.

It's just kind of every time. And it's bugging me a little. She's not being entitled or a CF who could afford to pick up the whole bill herself. £20 I don't notice on a round of coffee and cake, is a tangible part of her weekly disposable income. I think there's an element that she knows it's negligible to me, so feels quite comfortable about it. And I don't begrudge it, I love her to bits, but when it's every time, I just think, once a month, she could say, "let's split it."

It's never anything over say £30, and I'd hate the thought of saying "shall we go halves" and her to feel obliged, then that was the money for her and DC dinner.

She's not a freeloader, truly, she's not. If it sounds like she is, it's my error in how I've worded this. I'm arguing internally, that, "£20/30 doesn't affect me, so what's the problem"...."but then 5 times a month, that's up to £150, which is a lot for her to be ok with accepting as treats"...."but the spend over a month doesn't affect me, so what's the problem"

So, AIBU. If we have a great time, as do our DC, and it's of immaterial consequence for me to pick up the tab for sundries, and very material for her, do I just keep doing it?

Or, just because it's immaterial, doesn't mean it's ok to keep doing it? Or more to the point, because it's a very material amount to her, should she be ok with accepting it on every occasion.

Myself and a family member have very different views here, would like to see general consensus.

(Quick clause, before this runs off on a stealth boast tangent, I hope people have the clarity to see this is not about being "significantly richer than yow" )

This thread has reminded me of the hell that is days out with other people’s’ children

I initially thought that the friend may just be a CF, but if the OP would expect a gourmet picnic, maybe the friend has bothered with bringing a flask of coffee because she knows it isn't up to the OPs standards.

Whilst I don't think the OP should always find her friend, she needs to accept that her friend can't afford the OPs lifestyle and should plan their trips accordingly.

Oh I'm not so sure. MIL and FIL lived in poverty- to the point where dh's sister phoned to see if we'd go halves when their boiler broke. All theor children remember being hungry. They never ever had the money for a round or a meal out.

FIL did suddenly. There was over a million in the bank.

Decent people pay theor way or make their excuses. She's a scrounge.

I think your friend is a little cheeky tbh. I struggle financially but I also really struggle with the concept of people paying for me even if I know they can easily afford it, it makes me feel really uncomfortable so If I go out with friends I will always insist on taking turns whether that be next time out or the next round if they won’t accept half. I would rather turn down a day out if I didn’t feel I could at least manage to offer to go halves than feel like a charity case so I think her keep agreeing to go out but then expecting you to pay is a bit cheeky and entitled even if you can afford it. As a result I don’t go out that often or stick to country walks with friends with dogs and a flask as much as possible, maybe you need to look at less costly or less frequent outings or both to give her a fighting chance at being able to contribute but as others have said if this is quite ling standing you may need to decide how much you value the friendship and whether its potentially worth losing her over.

I think the point people are trying to make with the picnic idea is that you want your children to have "nice things" when you're out. If that's ice cream or food or a fancy picnic. Your friend flat out can't afford that. Rather than you just not being it up or not get them for your DC when your out you will offer them to your DC because you can afford it. Your friend has 2 choices here, she can either tell her children no that they don't have the money and they then sit like the poor relation while you all have whatever treat or she can allow you to treat her DC too. But that doesn't have to be the position. For the sake of fairness you could "lower" yourself to her standards for the trip. Take a "bag of sandwiches" which by the way doesn't have to be the saddest thing in the world, nice sandwiches exist. And let the kids enjoy time together but you don't want to. Until you can enjoy a day out in a way which she can afford you will not fix this. By saying what you want to say I expect she won't feel able to spend time with you.
I grew up on benefits. My parents separated and my mum couldn't afford to work. By the time food and bills were paid there was no more money. She isn't being cheeky by not offering to pay, she can't offer to pay. To do so would probably put her into debt. Have a cheap day out on all sides or go your separate ways. If her kind of snacks etc are below you and you don't want to subject her to a rigmarole of handmade quiche and such like then there really isn't any other options that I can see.

She knows that you like doing these things. She might feel she doesn't want to disappoint you, so she passes the buck. She might not suggest the picnics etc as she knows you wouldn't like her version. It's the dynamic you've fallen into.
She might be just as happy with simple, free things but knows you wouldn't be, so goes along with your version of a good day out.

She might not be a CF, but is going along with you - or she might be a proper CF. Don't say anything. Adjust your expectations instead. It won't hurt you to have cheese sandwiches and jaffa cakes with the hoi polloi every so often.

Whilst this has gone off on a bit of a weird picnic tangent, I'm very interested.

The general opinion seems to be, I should lower the standards as such that me and my own DC don't enjoy what we have, so we don't offend someone else, who we have financed, specifically in this manner, for months.

The alternative is keep funding that someone else.

She seems to be viewed as more important than me and my DC. "Either make your day less enjoyable, or fund her day out"

I'm interested as to why the view isn't, you bring what you want. No, she perhaps won't have matched the tangible value of what you bring, but actually, what you feed your own children is not her concern. It's not your problem that she's skint, and she's happily allowed you to cover her for months, so actually, she can prepare her own food. She's only has the same as you, as long as you're paying. Well, now, you're not paying. So she shouldn't expect to have the same as you.

should lower the standards as such that me and my own DC don't enjoy what we have, so we don't offend someone else, who we have financed, specifically in this manner, for months

That doesn't sound so kind now does it.
Someone I have 'financed' for months?? You have bought a few coffees and lunches! Not paid for her house and car.

Just because you have paid for those things, that does not give you carte blanche to decide everything for her.

Of course a picnic can be incredibly enjoyable, and if you would prefer to have other treats you can do so when she is not there. Your insistence that the paid for treats must happen for your children regardless of whether they can afford it or not is not fair, and putting her in a very difficult position.

You can still have the expensive treats of course, just not with your friend and her children when you know she can't afford them, or you continue to pay, anything else would be extremely unkind.

I think a similar analogy would be:

Courtney and DC like swimming. Friend and FDC like swimming. They swim weekly, Courtney pays everyone's entry fee. Courtney is feeling that over a year, the friend has not once offered anything in kind.

Swimming in the sea is free. Courtney doesn't like this. She and her DC would not enjoy this. But it provides an avenue for free swimming.

So, essentially, if I don't swim in the sea, I am snobbish and entitled. Or I continue to fund the other family indefinitely.

That's just not right. Because the issue isn't covering the ticket cost. The issue is, continuously covering the ticket cost, without ever hearing back, "If you run us all to yours afterwards, we'll all help clear the garden."

Swimming in the sea doesn't change that.

Your insistence that the paid for treats must happen for your children regardless of whether they can afford it or not is not fair, and putting her in a very difficult position.

If you read the thread, you will see you are way off the mark. I frequently tell my children no.

She however, will not tell her children no. She looks at me to respond to them for her. The majority of the time when I end up paying, is because her DC ask for things, and rather than say no, she passes the decision to me. That should be her decision. Not to go "I'm not sure..." then look at me, then allow her children to ask me the same question, like she's "okayed it" and now it's down to me to turn them down.

Food, I really enjoy, so do my DC. So, yes, not because I'm Hyacinth Bucket, I will take (what I would call) a lovely picnic. Because if that's what I choose to bring as the alternative to buying her and her DC's food, that's my right.

I think you’re getting a bit huffy now. It’s “your right” to eat what you like? We’re trying to find ways for you to all enjoy a cheap lunch.

Look, I get liking what you like. I don’t like boring sandwiches but I think there’s a gap between a dull cheese sandwich and a lively picnic spread with quiche etc. How about taking a nice sandwich (or since this is Mumsnet a ‘naice’ sandwich.) Olive ciabatta, avocado, heirloom tomatoes, fresh mozzarella, pesto... Those sea salt and wine vinegar crisps on the side. Then everyone is having ‘sandwiches and crisps’ and it’s not immediately noticeable that yours is a naice sandwich compared to friend’s. At least not in the same way that ‘little bag of sandwiches’ compares to ‘picnic spread’.

You like nice things and you can afford them. But it might be less awkward for everyone if you cut your coat to suit your friend’s cloth on occasion.

In conclusion, try not to be so binary about nasty sandwiches versus nice picnic. Be more creative about ways to do the same but different.

I have read the thread op, indeed I posted at the beginning.

She looks to you to say yes or no because she can't pay! So if you say yes to your children then how can she say no to hers?!

And if you really believe her children are asking for things and she is passing the buck, then you are being exploited and should stop seeing her.

You don't need to pay for friends.

You can just see her for an hour and leave it at that. No picnics and no icecreams etc. On your way home pick up something for your kids. Job done. You are making this into a big thing when it doesn't need to be.

Reset your friendship and stop paying.

In your analogy, you take your DC swimming at the pool either on your own or with a different friend. If you meet no money friend you go to the sea.

In your analogy, you take your DC swimming at the pool either on your own or with a different friend. If you meet no money friend you go to the sea.

I'm intrigued as to why this is seen as the answer. And not, you continue to pay, as you all prefer the experience. She, once every few weeks, offers an afternoon to assist you with something. Which you may or may not need/accept, it's the simple point that she's offered.

I agree with other replies. Meet later. No we fine we ate at home thanks. I would be cringing if other person always paid. Or ask her bring few bits you bring x can she get few bits too. A pattern was set by her so she prob expects it now

Everything is a transaction isnt it OP?
You think DF should do your garden in return for swimming.🤔
Jeepers you really like this dynamic of being " better" dont you?
I only say this as you seem desperate to show everyone that you have money which is quite cringeworthy.
Did you say you are not Mrs Bucket

All around the country parents are packing sandwiches, crisps ,scotch eggs and drinks and heading out ( at last) with their very excited DC.
My DS would almost burst with excitement at the prospect of a sandy cheese roll and some crisps eaten on a windy beach.
Its a shame you are setting yours up to not enjoy simple pleasures.
The weather has been very hot and on one hand you can only tolerate a full on Nigellaish picnic with hampers ,yet you have failed to even bring bottles of water for your red faced DC when you "accidently" 😂 find yourself at a NT property.

courtney she may not have the time/energy or money to assist you with something in the afternoons. She may feel she has nothing to offer!
Why are you so keen to continue to pay, but now want to extract something in return?

It is now tipping into coercion.

Have you ever heard the saying ' if you don't give with a kind heart, then don't give anything at all' that sums it up perfectly.

She looks to you to say yes or no because she can't pay!

So she can't tell her own children no then? Why?

So if you say yes to your children

Her children.

She's indirectly telling HER children yes, with the "oooh, I don't know." That's a "well it's not a no from Mummy, let's see if Courtney let's you down"

I couldnt do it

Your friendship sounds less like friendship and more like a transaction!

Sometimes we do things for people, and get nothing back in return at all! It happens all the time!

I dropped off food to the food bank yesterday, I didn't stand there and demand someone does some sewing for me as a return favour. I offered the boxes because I wanted them to eat, to be safe and be looked after.
I didn't do it because I expected something in return.

Do you always expect to be repaid in some way for everything you do for others?

Well stop paying then op. It is very simple.

You think DF should do your garden in return for swimming

Well that's a spectacular misunderstanding of the situation.

Totally get what your saying, would really annoy me too. But can't you just say no to her DC? Just say, we're not having one today but if you want one I'm sure your mummy will get you one? Or get to swimming earlier than planned, text her to say you are going in and you'll see her in the pool so she has to pay to get in as you're already in there? Or forget your purse so you can't have anything! Bring a water bottle for you and DC and just be out for a couple of hours

I wonder how she would react if you said no a few times in a row? I can see why this niggles. I’d be tempted to ask her a favour (using her time, not money) to see how she reacts.

People are being ridiculous now.