to think this person has had masses of white privilege

[raspran]

If a white male has grown up in a small house in a poor family (their words not mine) but went on buy their own home, get a good job with a large multinational and be sponsored through university and immigrate to the USA and get their green card then they can't claim not to have had any white privilege?
Yet they are saying that they have had no white privilege.

To me white privilege is basically if everything else is the same the white person has the advantage

See, I don't really think this way of thinking can work when discussing GRTs because things are never "all things equal" for us due to the specific racism and discrimination we face.

Having a green card gives them a huge privilege, one which wouldn't have been so easily afforded to somebody who wasn't white.

Sorry but that is utter nonsense. I’ve been an immigrant in the US as a nonwhite person and you have no idea how the US immigration system works. They give put more green cards to ethnic minorities than white immigrants.

and I replied answering your question

You did not.

He has had white privilege - however compared to a black middle class man from a wealthy family he has had no more privilege imo whereas in relation to a black middle class female he has had both white and male privilege. White privilege exists but we have many layers as individuals and colour is not the only form of privilege - although you would think it was atm!

@CluelessBaker

All white people have white privilege, regardless of their circumstances or other achievements. It’s an automatic factor of being white.

White privilege doesn’t mean ‘Your life is easy / successful because you’re white’. It means that whatever challenges you face in your life, they are not caused by your colour.

Ha, really? I was unable to marry the man I wanted because of my colour. I was not allowed the same type of work opportunity as my friend because I was the wrong colour? While I get the ‘white privilege’ sentiment, you can not say that all white persons challenges have feck all to do with their skin tone.

I think it can be hard for people to “get it” if they don’t see the impact that it has on those who are adversely affected (i.e. if you are white and don’t have many black friends or colleagues then you are less likely to appreciate the struggles as you don’t see them directly).

To give an example of male privilege (because for some reason that seems to be easier for people, particularly white men to grasp): I used to moan to a male peer at work that I was continuously disadvantaged at work because I’m a women. In particular I was constantly not invited to meetings I should be been at and my male peers were invited instead, even if I was actually the best person to be at that meeting. I was ignored in meetings, often saying the same thing over and over again, only to see a man eventually make the same point and then be praised for it. Standard workplace stuff in male dominated industries. Suddenly one day my male peer got it. He actually admitted that he was treated differently to me and the other men spoke to him completely differently to how they spoke to me. I don’t think he ever would have really accepted and understood male privilege if he hadn’t witnessed it repeatedly.

I think this is part of the reason white privilege is not well understood, because there are huge swathes of the population who don’t witness the other side of it. They think how they are treated is normal and so everyone else is treated the same.

You do know that most people with peas for brains really don’t care about this nonsense?

You missed a bit.

I'd say this was a great example of Ivory Tower thinking - that those who don't care about your social theory are just mentally deficient - but plenty of academics take issue with how privilege theory is used popularly used. It is a great example of what has been discussed in a few studies that teaching about White privilege just makes people bigger assholes and has little benefit.

If your social theory doesn't interest or feel applicable to most people, it really shouldn't be blamed on those people without considering that the theory has issues, especially when applied to individuals as a failing rather than as a description of an issue within the working of social systems.

They were a citizen as a child and immigrated to the US as an adult.

If I'd given my British kids my US citizenship, them moving there wouldn't immigrating, it would just be moving. Not knowing whether he had citizenship or a green card - and the clear evidence of not knowing how green cards work - does make the whole thing make less sense.

However, I still don't think White privilege is something he or anyone else has, making it individualistic ignores how social systems work, and there is no benefit in trying to convince him about it.

I think this is part of the reason white privilege is not well understood, because there are huge swathes of the population who don’t witness the other side of it. They think how they are treated is normal and so everyone else is treated the same

I don't think anyone is denying that white privilege exists on a societal level. The question is how useful a concept it is when applied to individual human beings in all the complexity of themselves and their experiences.

Looking through the thread I think this person has done extraordinarily well despite his circumstances. He may be white. Which gives him and advantage over a POC but he hasn't had it easy and has pushed through many barriers including getting himself a degree despite of - not because of - his background. Why do you care what colour he is - he has done brilliantly you sound like you resent him and are giving him no credit for what he has achieved through his perseverance and hard work.

@Wizadorawobble

Have you seen the problems faced by GRT children in education where they are educated in a different culture to the one they are in at home?

What have these been, in your experience?

I’ve taught a lot of Traveller children and am very interested in their experience of state primary schooling. I will say at the outset that their low attendance rate (and I mean when enrolled, not when travelling) is at odds with the way the curriculum is designed. I am have no real idea why their attendance is low even when temporarily settled.

icedpurple
I don't think anyone is denying that white privilege exists on a societal level. The question is how useful a concept it is when applied to individual human beings in all the complexity of themselves and their experiences.

You have articulated my point far more eloquently than me. This.

@IcedPurple

and I replied answering your question

You did not.

Then I suggest you re-read the thread and find my answer, I am not repeating myself.

[quote HopeClearwater]@Wizadorawobble

Have you seen the problems faced by GRT children in education where they are educated in a different culture to the one they are in at home?

What have these been, in your experience?

I’ve taught a lot of Traveller children and am very interested in their experience of state primary schooling. I will say at the outset that their low attendance rate (and I mean when enrolled, not when travelling) is at odds with the way the curriculum is designed. I am have no real idea why their attendance is low even when temporarily settled.[/quote]
Different cultural expectations, different views on what is acceptable and what is not.

The thing about "white privilege" is that it's just a concept someone came up with and then some more people agreed and then academics started pontificating about it and now it's presented as an undeniable fact. Important to remember that you can decide if you agree with the concept or not. You really don't have to. What's problematic though is that there's a whole big mass of people out there lots on MN ordering you to agree it is valid and real and telling you that if you don't agree then that means you're OBVIOUSLY A RACIST!!!! So there's a lot of pressure to nod along, virtue signal and determinedly not ask too many questions.

In RL I avoid the discussion where possible and just read and watch anything I can my hands on in order to form my own opinion of the existence of white privilege.

Then I suggest you re-read the thread and find my answer, I am not repeating myself

I have reread the thread and you did not respond to my post where I asked you to furnish stats supporting your assumption that BAME people were less likely be granted US visas when all other factors had been controlled her.

You did not respond to that question.

You did, however, say in a comment posted prior to mine that you did not find any such stats. And yet, you have again made the assumption that immigration is automatically easier for white people compared to BAME people in equivalent circumstances. Why are you doing this when, by your own admission, you have zero evidence to back this up? Are you just projecting your own assumptions and hoping none of us will call you out on it, even though several of us already have?

I always find it interesting that there are people who talk about male privilege but then react in exactly the same way that men do when people talk about white privilege.

It's like they think male privilege is a thing but white privilege isn't.

It's like they think male privilege is a thing but white privilege isn't.

And that's fine, because people can make their own minds up can't they? They can decide for themselves if one or the other is valid or not.

@raspran

If a white male has grown up in a small house in a poor family (their words not mine) but went on buy their own home, get a good job with a large multinational and be sponsored through university and immigrate to the USA and get their green card then they can't claim not to have had any white privilege? Yet they are saying that they have had no white privilege.

So does this white male live in a multi cultural area? Does he have a British name. Do you have any reason at all to believe that he was given/promoted into a job because of his whiteness. Ok he bought his own home before he got a good job with a large multinational. Great to be able to buy your first home before you get a job and be sponsored through University. Strange timeline there op.

They can decide for themselves if one or the other is valid or not

If they think male privilege is a thing, then so is white privilege.

You don't seem to get the concept of free thought tbh.

I’ve taught a lot of Traveller children and am very interested in their experience of state primary schooling. I will say at the outset that their low attendance rate (and I mean when enrolled, not when travelling) is at odds with the way the curriculum is designed. I am have no real idea why their attendance is low even when temporarily settled

The curriculum is just so very different from what our children need. It doesn't take into account that we come from a culture that is oral, has little relevance to a our lifestyle and culture , huge issues with bullying, ignores our cultural needs etc

Op you clearly do not understand what white privilege is. The whole point is that, on average, white people have an advantage over black people. It doesn't matter whether the white people are high achievers or druggies on a council estate.
White privilege doesn't apply to individuals - you definitely can't say that a high achieving white person only got there through white privilege! Lots of black people also do better than average and even get green cards to live in the USA - that doesn't disprove white privilege either.

Free thought does not change the existence of something if it is real.

Free thought does not change the existence of something if it is real.

Another one who doesn't understand that people can assess and decide for themselves. You cannot make that determination. You can decide for yourself that you believe it but you can't tell everyone else they have to "because it's real" end of discussion. That's the problem with this discussion, it has been determined that it cannot be questioned "because it's real" and that's it. I find that worrying. I have an American friend, who is black and doesn't believe in white privilege, he's called vicious names for that by some of his black peers but he still says it isn't and won't be swayed. Is he a racist? An "Uncle Tom" as they call him? He voted Trump in the last election (WTF?!) but we don't talk about that.

I will say right now, I don't know enough to decide entirely where I stand on this argument, so I read and read and watch and talk and try to absorb as much information as I can and that's my right. It's my right to educate and determine for myself, not be ordered to believe "because it's real", and only a racist would question it.