to think this person has had masses of white privilege

[raspran]

If a white male has grown up in a small house in a poor family (their words not mine) but went on buy their own home, get a good job with a large multinational and be sponsored through university and immigrate to the USA and get their green card then they can't claim not to have had any white privilege?
Yet they are saying that they have had no white privilege.

Quite. If a traveller applies for a job, no-one's going to turn them away unless they write 'traveller' on the application form

Local employers recognise their address as a traveller address and that is how the discrimination occurs.

White privilege shouldn't be seen as something someone has or possess, it's not something someone owns. it's a social theory that can explains how and why our social systems do not subject those perceived as White at the time of their interaction with a system (for some, that isn't consistent) to the same levels of injustice as others. I personally dislike the word privilege when it comes to something that should be a social right. Being able to buy a home, get a good job that one is qualified for, and being able to immigrate without a racial barrier shouldn't be seen as a privilege, and facing that barrier should be seen as an injustice, not a lack of something that someone else has. There are so many things wrong with that

But then in general, I think we should take more issues with the systems that perpetuate it than whether or not an individual is up to date with theory

Excellent post.

Evidently I have no idea of what white privilege is so can someone explain please as I seem to be missing the point?

I do think a lot of people get riled up because they hear the term privilege and think you are 'accusing' them of other types of advantages which they didn't have

To me white privilege is basically if everything else is the same the white person has the advantage

So two kids growing up on a council estate to a single mum where the father isn;t involved in their life - neither has much advantage in life - but the white kid (A) doesn't face the additional difficulties faced by the black kid (B) (increased risk of being stopped by police if they are both hanging round outside the local shop)

Two kids growing up middle class on the same estate, two parent families, go to the local school (same one) get the same grades, go to uni and study the same subject, both come out with a 2:1 - the odds are if they interview for the same job and both are equal with white guy (C) will get it due to subconscious bias - ie the black guy (D) has to prove themselves more - it doesn't mean they can't do it, but it is slightly harder)

Two more people (one black (E) one white(F)) grow up as the children of millionaires, they both go to Eton followed by Oxford and follow Daddy into the family business - both are extremely privileged but if they are both out jogging late at night around their local area the black man has far more chance of being viewed suspiciously but those who don't know him

Person F has the highest advantage of all of them, he's got family money behind him, a private educate and he's white, person E has more advantage than people A-D but not as much as person F
Person B is at the bottom of the advantage pile - has everything stacked against him - thats not to say he won't get anywhere but it will take a lot more work and luck

@AirJordans

NOT THIS AGAIN!!!!! *@Mumsnet* need to sort out the racism and ignorance on this site! FFS!!

White privilege exists and if you're white you've benefitted. Now go and educate yourself before posting another stupid question.

That was my whole point @AirJordans so I hope that isn't directed at me.

I voted YABU because there is no such thing as “masses” of white privilege. It’s just one check in one box of an entire list of privileges a person can have or not have. Based on what you said this person has male and white privilege, but did not have class, income, or education, or native born citizen privileges.
Class= working class= not privileged
Income= poor= not privileged
Education= scholarship/charity student= not privileged
Job= born in bad job area, so moved to find good job= not privileged.
Citizen= no, immigrant= not privileged

You have to look at whole person, not just their sex and skin colour.

@totalpeas22

You do know that most people really don’t care about this nonsense?

You do know that most people with peas for brains really don’t care about this nonsense?

You missed a bit.

I detest the privilege way of talking about this, it’s counterproductive and will drive people to the far right.

When black friends start telling our mutual friend about all his “privilege” when I personally know he has alcoholism, was beaten shitless and starved by family that still drag him down, when he has no prospect really of ever escaping his situation with the lack of access to true MH support, he doesn’t feel very privileged just because he’s white.

We need to change the language and understanding completely if we aren’t going to totally divide society. Jesus I have mixed race kids and even I am sick of the guilt inducing woke bullshit.

Surely it's just this: Would it have been harder to do all that if circumstances were exactly the same apart from the fact you had black skin?

On average, yes.

However, individuals don't exist as 'averages'. For all you know, this person encountered employers and immigration officials who were themselves BAME and/or were eager to help BAME individuals. So it's possible - though statistically not likely - that this person would have found his path easier had he not been white. We just don't know.

This is why, as others have said the idea of 'white privilege' is a useful, though rather blunt, concept at the societal level, it is unhelpful at the individual level. People are not statistics.

@Josette77

So a white male who grew up poo has white privilege but white travellers do not? I think you need to pick a lane.

Have you seen the problems faced by GRT children in education where they are educated in a different culture to the one they are in at home? There are problems that they experience because of the conflict of the two cultures.

I think it's important to consider white privilege as a general concept - white people (as a whole/broadly) have generally benefited from white privilege as a societal factor.

Focussing on an individual is going to be unhelpful, because someone poor with apparently none of the typical advantages that have accrued to white people far more than black/minority over hundreds of years, may not recognise white privilege readily as having benefitted themselves.

It's quite hard for people who have struggled to grasp a quite intangible/indirect advantage, especially in the UK (versus USA) where black people are a much smaller percentage of the population and are concentrated in a few cities. Many rural & suburban communities lack diversity & first hand experience.

@PlanDeRaccordement

I voted YABU because there is no such thing as “masses” of white privilege. It’s just one check in one box of an entire list of privileges a person can have or not have. Based on what you said this person has male and white privilege, but did not have class, income, or education, or native born citizen privileges. Class= working class= not privileged Income= poor= not privileged Education= scholarship/charity student= not privileged Job= born in bad job area, so moved to find good job= not privileged. Citizen= no, immigrant= not privileged

You have to look at whole person, not just their sex and skin colour.

They weren't a scholarship or charity student, they had the same as everybody else in their school. They were a citizen as a child and immigrated to the US as an adult.

So a white male who grew up poo has white privilege but white travellers do not? I think you need to pick a lane

I missed that ^

Don't believe we suffer systemic racism then?

Op, then what did you mean by “sponsored through university”??
Geberally, sponsored means you have a sponsor who pays your tuition. As in a charitable benefactor.

Raspran

To put this from a different angle.

I know a similar individual who also emigrated to the USA and is in similar circumstances now. She is black. That does not mean white privilege does not exist. It means the impact of a societal level general advantage will accrue differently on individual levels, with some deriving great benefit from it and others none.

They were a citizen as a child and immigrated to the US as an adult.

If they lived on their home country, then they’d have the privilege of being a native born citizen. But since they do not live there, but in the US on a green card, they do not have that privilege now

To me white privilege is basically if everything else is the same the white person has the advantage

This is theoretically correct.

However, the reality of the human existence is that no two peoples experience will be so exactly the same as to test this, so on an individual basis, there will always appear to be a handful of people who will confound analysis.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Op, then what did you mean by “sponsored through university”?? Geberally, sponsored means you have a sponsor who pays your tuition. As in a charitable benefactor.

They did a degree as an adult and it was paid for by their employer.

They did a degree as an adult and it was paid for by their employer

What is the point of this drip feeding? And does this mystery man actually exist outside of your head?

Similar to how while I live here in France, I am a citizen. But when I lived in the US, I was an immigrant. You can’t count someone as having “citizen privilege” when they are not living there but living in another country as an immigrant.

@PlanDeRaccordement

They were a citizen as a child and immigrated to the US as an adult.

If they lived on their home country, then they’d have the privilege of being a native born citizen. But since they do not live there, but in the US on a green card, they do not have that privilege now

Having a green card gives them a huge privilege, one which wouldn't have been so easily afforded to somebody who wasn't white. I have no idea if they are 'only' on a green card or have citizenship, they've lived there for most of their adult life now.

@IcedPurple

They did a degree as an adult and it was paid for by their employer

What is the point of this drip feeding? And does this mystery man actually exist outside of your head?

It's not a drip feed, it was to clarify something somebody else said. And yes, they exist, they are related to family members of mine by marriage.

They did a degree as an adult and it was paid for by their employer.

Ok, then that is not education privileged. Privilege is what you get it based on the circumstances of your birth, not through your efforts and work.

Having a green card gives them a huge privilege, one which wouldn't have been so easily afforded to somebody who wasn't white

I asked you before if you had statistics which prove that non-white people are less likely to be granted visas/green cards than white people, when all other factors have been controlled for?

Do you have those statistics?

@IcedPurple

Having a green card gives them a huge privilege, one which wouldn't have been so easily afforded to somebody who wasn't white

I asked you before if you had statistics which prove that non-white people are less likely to be granted visas/green cards than white people, when all other factors have been controlled for?

Do you have those statistics?

and I replied answering your question.