The beach down south/bbc news tonight

[Milssofadoesntreallyfit]

I'm mean, yes I want things back to normal BUT I am still concerned in case we get a spike again. I agree we all need to be careful BUT clearly all these people just thought F* it.
All we've put up with so far with lock down and it seems every one on the beach in question decided to piss it into the wind.

If I were the government I would think I couldn't trust people to use sense at all and put lockdown back in place until either a vaccination or until people realised that if they want lockdown relaxed then they need to prove they can be trusted to show a bit of caution.

Rant over.

My mum died of covid in March, she had been given a year tops at the end of last year, so was she going to die anyway this year? Most probably. Does it offend me when people suggest that some of those who have died from covid would probably have died anyway? No. How can anybody be offended by the truth?

@HesterShaw1

Stop selectively paraphrasing me Hearhooves

If people want to take offence from a perfectly logical observation, that's their issue.

That is not what I said, and not what I meant.

This is what you said

The majority of the people who died with Covid would have been expected to die of something soon anyway.

How am I selectively paraphrasing?

What exactly did you mean when you said The majority of the people who died with Covid would have been expected to die of something soon anyway. if you didn't mean the majority of people who died with Covid would have been expected to die soon anyway? It's hard to imagine there's more than one meaning to that statement.

I'm still waiting for you to prove the validity of that statement with actual data.

And for the record I'm not the only poster who was offended by your post. If you do t want people to take offense, maybe don't write something offensive?

Does it offend me when people suggest that some of those who have died from covid would probably have died anyway? No. How can anybody be offended by the truth?

Firstly, to say that some people who died from Covid probably would have died within a year isn't offensive and is true. To say that the majority who died would have died soon is not true.

Secondly, even if people did have life threatening or life limiting illnesses it doesn't make it ok that they died instead from Covid, under these circumstances.

Thirdly, too many people are dismissing the people who are shielding by saying "they would have died soon anyway" in order to justify writing them off. Many people who are currently shielding live normal lives with normal life expectancies. I'm certainly not about to die and nor are many others.

Secondly, even if people did have life threatening or life limiting illnesses it doesn't make it ok that they died instead from Covid, under these circumstances

So what? It would have been better for mum not to get covid and instead die a slow painful death instead because that would sit better with you?

@trappedsincesundaymorn

Secondly, even if people did have life threatening or life limiting illnesses it doesn't make it ok that they died instead from Covid, under these circumstances

So what? It would have been better for mum not to get covid and instead die a slow painful death instead because that would sit better with you?

No, it would be better for no one to die a slow painful death.

Leaving patients in a nursing home to die from Covid, unpalliated, was inhuman.

How about the rest of my post - do you think it's ok to dismiss the health needs of two million people on the erroneous belief that they're going to die soon anyway?

Key word is "majority".

There is no point debating with you. You are completely determined to put yourself at the centre of every point on every post, and explain at great length how that does or doesn't apply to your specific situation.

As for the slow painful death bit, then Covid is a lot less slow and a lot less painful than dying of many other diseases, for example Alzheimer's. By the end of my dad's life we were praying for something to end it. If it had been Covid, it wouldn't have been any sadder than the pneumonia which did take him. Covid deaths matter of course, but everyone dies of something. There are many diseases out there and many viruses, just waiting to "get" any one of us.

Again, if you take the above as referring specifically to you, in your specific situation, there's nothing I can do about that.

Key word is "majority".

I understand that.

Where is the data that shows the majority of people who died from Covid were going to die within the next year?

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

Key word is "majority".

I understand that.

Where is the data that shows the majority of people who died from Covid were going to die within the next year?

Well I'd look it up for you but the chances are you'll dismiss it, (like you've dismissed every other data you've asked for if it's not what you want to hear), so there really is no point. You really are just like a toddler with the endless "why? why? why? but. but, but.....that's not fair!". Seriously, look things up for yourself, work things out for yourself, make life more tolerable for yourself instead of expecting everyone else to do it for you.

Just going back to this point...
I'm also not quite sure why people who are shielding feel that society has decided they should be sacrificed. It's quite obvious that this isn't the case.
I really do believe that. I think everyone has bent over backwards to make life as safe as possible for those who are shielding and vulnerable. It must be much harder for the medically vulnerable in, say, Sweden?

We won't be able to analyse extra annual deaths until the yearly figures are in.

A lockdown until a vaccine is just not realistic- what if there is never one?

There's also lots of interesting data coming out about immunity via T cells which means that a percentage of the population is not susceptible to the virus. It's really interesting.

I understand that people are worried and frightened. But I don't agree with further lockdown.

I know Neil Ferguson said that 2 thirds of the people who die of Covid would have died this year anyway. Quote’Many of the deaths were likely to be old and seriously ill people who would have died from other conditions before the end of the year.’

This is true - I work for a national funeral director and this year is like an extended ‘bad flu’ year in terms of numbers of deaths. We’re in almost daily meetings with government to help us plan and manage services. As a result, we’re planning for fewer deaths in Q4 and Q1 2021 because those deaths will have already happened. Death rate and funerals now are at normal projected levels. We expect there may be a couple of spikes here and there, but certainly nothing that justifies a continued lockdown.

No he said may have died and that was back in March when many of the deaths were in care homes when hospitals were cleared of elderly patients.

Not sure why that failed

I understand more and more each day why I am as misanthropic as I am.

"Covid only killed people that were going to die anyway"
Awesome... So Harold shipman did nothing wrong then. His elderly victims were going to die soon so he should have been left to it. What about other angel of mercy murderers? Their victims were going to die so why punish them? I bet the families of the victims were thanking them really.
"Cheers for killing me mum, she was knocking on and getting a bit inconvenient with insisting on living"

It's like watching Monty Pythons "Bring out yer dead" scene in real life.

So what is the cut off then? Is it anything under a year? If I took poorly and only had a year to live wouldn't be ok being killed off? Cause I mean that could solve some issues, all those people with a tendancy to murder could be prescribed one Granny a month and a terminal cancer patient every Xmas.

It's unthinkable, but some how fine if Covid kills em off early...

"Covid only killed people that were going to die anyway"

Except that's not actually what was said in the last couple of pages.

But crack on being misanthropic if that's what floats your boat.

It was with reference to risk.

But crack on being misanthropic if that's what floats your boat

I will, you're helping fuel my hatred fire, please continue.

I hope you have a job where you have to deal with grief daily or where you have to tell relatives of people that have just died.

"Well your mum was going to die anyway to be fair so we don't really care."

I see 'Hear Hooves Think Zebra' from someone living in the UK sums up a worldview that says 'I don't care what's real, I'll believe what I want to believe'. And reading some posts that view is reinforced.

This virus is here to stay along with lots of other corona viruses that we live with (The Common Cold) and flu viruses.

If you are vulnerable then even the common cold can lead to death. As for flu it kills thousands in the UK every year. Every single year. AND more children than the CV19 has killed die EVERY YEAR from flu.

All the vulnerable people I know were vulnerable way before Covid and are used to being extra careful. None of them think that everyone else should give up their freedom to protect them, other than washing their hands when they go to see them and staying away when they have cold or 'a virus'.

The biggest killer of males under 45 is suicide and in 2018 there were 6500 deaths by suicide in the UK. I suspect there will be many more than that this year and even more next when the economy will be even more shit and the increase will be made up largely of males under 45. But of course they won't be Covid so they won't count.

I was a nurse and I have had to support people having given them news they didn't want to hear. Pre Covid, people still died as they will post Covid. Any and every death has it's sadness, dying of Covid is not more tragic than any other death. And whilst any death is sad, I don't believe any death over a certain age is a tragedy.

Oh and I am vulnerable it's not my fault but it is my responsibility. I will take care of me - not expect everyone else to.

I hope you have a job where you have to deal with grief daily or where you have to tell relatives of people that have just died.

No I don't but I have small business which has pretty much vanished due to lockdown.

Daily grief - that's the key, as you just said yourself. Grief comes DAILY though the weeks, months, years and decades, whether we are in the time of Covid or not. People die every day and death is part of life. And no by saying that I don't think the shielded are all close to death, or any other trite careless observation you want to chuck my way.

Quit your sanctimony. Covid is not the only thing that matters in this world. Stop talking like you are the only one who gets it.

I think everyone has bent over backwards to make life as safe as possible for those who are shielding and vulnerable.

Really? In what way?

Well - lockdown, distancing rules - because of an illness which for the greater number of people is not dangerous?

@Jourdain11

Well - lockdown, distancing rules - because of an illness which for the greater number of people is not dangerous?

But lockdown and social distancing wasn't for the benefit of the shielded. We were all isolated inside our own homes.

Lockdown and social distancing is/was to control the spread of the virus amongst the general population so that the NHS, and essential services, could cope.

It was nothing to do with protecting the shielded. We shielded ourselves.

Healthy people catch Covid and need hospital treatment. If too many get seriously ill there will be no room for them in hospital and also no room for the "healthy" people having heart attacks, traffic accidents, etc.

This has not been done to protect the people who need to shield, it's been done to prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed and to prevent so many people catching it that essential services stop.

No I don't but I have small business which has pretty much vanished due to lockdown

Well it was going to go bust anyway so who gives a fuck?

I agree partly, but I do also think it's in part been done to protect the vulnerable and shielding. Because, let's face it, these groups are most likely to need hospital treatment. I know there are others who do too, and that it is important to get the other NHS services up and running. But I think there's also a point to accepting that a lot of this has been done to protect the medically vulnerable, and to be thankful for that.