Inappropriate BIL behavior?

[confusedm1]

Long story here. I don’t have anyone else to get advice from about this so hoping MN can give me some. I’m ready to be told IABU. I’ve had some postnatal anxiety so I’m not sure if I’m being unnecessarily worried.

Parent in-laws live 10 hours away. BIL lives in a small flat very close to them, visits most days, he basically lives there half the time. He’s middle-age, has social anxiety, doesn’t work or see any friends or extended family, no girlfriend. From what I can gather he spends a lot of time on the internet and sees his parents and that’s about it. He’s had drug problems in the past and frequently has suicidal thoughts. Until below I thought he was a nice, quiet man who had a rough life. Now I don’t no what to think.

I’m a FTM to a 2 year old DD, who is also the family’s 1st GC. Me and DH visited in-laws before lockdown.
BILs actions towards DD made me uncomfortable straight away. He would constantly touch her face, I mean all the time and pat her head like a dog. He would lie on the floor so DD could climb him. Try to tickle her at the time. He was way more involved than any other family member. But I put it down to me being over protective.
He would also put food on her highchair but not stuff I would normally give her so I would say “please don’t give her that” and he would say “no she’s fine.” I also asked him not to touch her face all the time he said “yes I can.” He would stay overnight at the in-laws, sleep on the sofa. I think this was so he could be there when she got up in the morning. If she took a tumble he would jump in and grab her to console her, before me or DH had a chance to. It’s almost like he wants to be her parent.
It was odd but I put all this down to him never having much interaction with baby’s, this was his first time seeing her and my anxiety.

So then on the last night we were there, I was getting her bath ready at night. BIL has just had a shower, again he did this sometimes (no Idea why but everyone thought it was normal). My FIL took DD into there bedroom, where BIL was. I heard her crying so went in. My heart fell out of my body at this point. DD was crawling up BILs body who was only wearing a towel and not covering himself very well. FIL grabbed DD, said “I’ll take her downstairs” and pretty much ran out. I think he realised it looked doughy. I should have had words with him then about it but I didn’t and left the room.

I told DH everything and my feelings about BIL but we go round and round. Ending in “so basically your saying my brothers a peado” NO but I cant ignore my feelings. DH agrees this is unacceptable behavior from BIL but to just leave it now and have words if anything else happens next time we visit. It could all be a misunderstanding. I have this bad feeling about BIL, I can’t explain it. I never had it before DD. A feeling of deep dread in my gut.

We plan to move soon (delayed by CV) to be near in-laws, they want to look after her while I’m a work which would be great and save money. But I’ll be worried constantly about BIL being there. Watching her alone while MIL pops to shop or something. I sway between thinking IABU and it’s good he wants to be so involved. Or I need to protect her and be cautious. I would feel absolutely terrible if anything happened, it’s every parents worst nightmare.

So WWYD and AIBU?

Elsewyre, where is anybody suggesting or advocating a lynch mob? Precisely nowhere.

To be quite honest, posts like yours and GrumpyHoonMain's, trying to shut down what is a genuine concern, make me feel very uneasy because that's the sort of thing that would be written by a predatory person themselves.

OP is this child's mother and she is standing on her own because her husband won't take her concerns seriously and he's the one other person who should be standing square beside her to protect their daughter.

If you've never run into an abuser of children yourself then I'm happy for you. I have. They were family and there was nowhere to run.

You say you have no support network where you live - dear god woman - make one! You are surrounded by wonderful capable friendly women that you haven't met yet! Get involved in the local sisterhood - make an effort to invite for coffee/wine/play dates...I know it is hard - I've managed to build up a friendly community of local mums - if I can do it, you can! All the benefit for your DD!

Why does he shower at his parents and have sleep overs?

OP, your DH’s reaction is totally normal I think. I wouldn’t/couldn’t believe that my sibling was capable of doing something like what you are suggesting, but I’d also have to listen to my DP’s concerns re the safety of my DC. Your DH needs to listen to your concerns. If there is no abuse, there are certainly boundary issues that must be addressed as they are far from “normal”.

How long did you stay at PIL’s? Sounds like the towel incident took place after he’d only known your daughter for a few days. All those PPs saying it’s completely normal for an uncle to be like that, that would only apply if they had an existing relationship. He hadn’t been bothered to see her in 2 years and then he’s suddenly hands-on, doting uncle? People I’ve known who don’t have children and aren’t really bothered by them remain that way when they’re with children. They don’t get down on the floor to be climbed on or constantly touch the children.

Another “not normal” thing is the fact that he stayed at PILs when you were there. How big is their house? “Normal” would be to stay at his when there were guests as obviously there would be less room at PIL’s. He’s 5 mins away so absolutely no reason to stay over. The shower thing is absolutely not normal. Think about the order things happened in. When did he decide to have a shower? Had you said it was DD’s bath time then he decided to shower? How many bathrooms etc? Again, if there’s one bathroom that’s about to be used by guests then there is no reason for him to be showering not at his and to be undressed around your DD. What time of day was it? Unless he has a shower at exactly that time every day, there was no reason for him to do it.

You specifically told him not to touch your DD’s face so much. He told you that he could. He’s basically told you that he can do what he wants with your DD and that you can not control what he does. Taking possible abuse out of things for a moment, that is a major problem. He is not going to follow your wishes and will decide what he thinks is best. Your DH and family have basically approved his behaviour. The least your DH needs to do is tell him and PILs that your (both you and your DH’s) rules must be followed.

Definitely speak to your police friend about it and contact the NSPCC for advice.

Never leave her alone with him.

Do not use your in laws as childcare or let her stay overnight.

I would always be there to supervise.

Stop being polite and scared of upsetting your BIL or IL’s.

The incident with the towel is completely inappropriate, how long does it take to pull on a pair of pants joggers? Why’s he playing with a naked child in a naked state himself.

If your H asks if you’re calling his brother a paedo, I’d ask him whether he’d be asking you this question if it were a member of your family who’s was behaving this way with vulnerable baby.

Don’t ignore your instincts. And don’t be polite. Remove your child from this mans vicinity immediately, do not ever leave your child unsupervised at your IL’s. So what if you’re overreacting, I’d rather overreact than have my baby harmed and live with the lifelong consequences.

Don't sacrifice your child for 'support'.

I'd be moving further away, not nearer.

www.amazon.co.uk/Conversations-Pedophile-Interest-Our-Children-ebook/dp/B00E8301D6/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Dr+Amy+zabin&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1593082498&sr=8-1
This book is a harrowing sickening read but it gives insights into the way paedophiles operate, they focus on maintaining plausible deniability, the 'thrill' comes from combining sexual pleasure with the pleasure that they get from total control over another human, preverbal children are targeted because they are easier to train and control
use of humiliation and shame to coerce the child into keeping secrets and confuse the child about what's going on is a big thing

⬆️ it's a fairly short book OP, please read it if you can

Have a read of this thread, it’s not scaremongering but gives an idea of how widespread abuse actually is: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3941542-To-think-that-actually-there-probably-is-a-paedophile-on-every-corner?pg=1

Trust your instincts, absolutely.
Also, don't feel the need to be polite to this man. For example, when he feeds your daughter food you have specified she is not to have, or touches her etc etc. If you are not comfortable, do not be afraid to raise your voice, stare him down or forcibly remove her from him.
Sadly, I wouldn't be leaving her with in-laws if he is going to be around.
She is more important than your in-laws, family harmony or, ultimately, your husband.

This was the motto of lynch mobs wasn't it?

Nope. That was systematically racist, violent contagion carried out by a group.

This is an individual picking up the social cues (non-verbal and observed behaviours) that something is off. That’s a very different thing.

With paedophiles there is often a big theme of them feeling that they are the victim, in this case you can see why this man is is well positioned to be seen as a victim, he is the one that people feel sorry for, who is struggling, and so they feel they should indulge him, they may feel guilty or responsible for the way that he has ended up, he knows that and he exploites it
plus he feels he is due some compensation for his disappointments in life, he feels he should be able to indulge himself

Protect your child and trust your instincts please. From personal experience I totally 100% agree with a child is more likely to be abused by a family member rather than a total stranger.

For myself, I'd be prepared to sacrifice just about anything to ensure I was never on the parental side of a conversation on the topic of 'why was this family member enabled to abuse me with impunity'. It looked a most uncomfortable place to be sitting. It also wasn't much fun being the one asking that particular question.

It's not just your BIL you have to worry about its your FIL too. If there is any dodgy goings on, you can bet your MIL knows or at least suspects and is turning a blind eye. Never leave your child there unsupervised not even for 5 mins to go to the toilet. I was repeatedly seriously sexually abused by a sibling when I was 4 (who was about 20 himself) whilst my mum was doing the washing up/having a shower/cooking dinner (an opportunist needs only a few minutes). I would not move to be closer to them either. In fact I would maintain a huge distance and barely visit them and keep visits short with no unsupervised time ever between any if them including the mother. Don't ever use them for childcare no matter his desperate you are.

P.S. My mum knew as there were very obvious signs of abuse but she chose to disregard them. As an adult, it came out and she spent nearly 30 years calling me a liar. I have later realised that she chose to ignore/disregard what happened as she was too weak to do something about it, and perhaps more importantly, she didn't do anything and then denied it could have taken place because she is very arrogant and did not want anyone to judge or look down on her. A similar scenario is playing out with another family I know at the moment. The point I'm trying to get across is, sometimes the family who live under the same roof know the abuse is actively taking place and for a variety of reasons they keep quiet. So do not trust any of them in that house even if you think they wouldn't physically do it.

Ending in “so basically your saying my brothers a peado

I would reply with a yes to this. Because it sounds actually, like he very is one.

You specifically told him not to touch your DD’s face so much. He told you that he could. He’s basically told you that he can do what he wants with your DD and that you can not control what he does

Like countless other PPs have said PLEASE trust your gut.

I'd also try to access to his internet history if I were you. Check any and all devices. 🧐

Oh and Elsewyre and anyone else being a twat about this... stfu. This is serious.

@NotMyFinestMoment - sorry to hear this. I have similar story. It’s hard when our mums the ones that are supposed to protect us don’t, even years later don’t give us the emotional support We need. Please pm me if you ever need to talk.

#Middle aged man
#No girlfriends
#Spends a lot of time on computer
#Stays at parents house when toddler niece is staying
#has then unlimited alone access at night/early morning to niece
#constantly touches her even though he's been asked to stop
#practically naked and allowed her to crawl all over him

I'm sorry to ask but has your dd been withdrawn after staying there,showing any out of character behaviour even if it's minor,any swelling/redness to genitals,blood in her nappy/pants,any water infections etc

@confusedm1, I imagine you are struggling to work out how to protect your DD while maintaining and hopefully strengthening your relationship with your DH. Whether or not your BIL is actually a paedophile, I think what you need at the moment is a way to firmly stand your ground on preventing BIL / FIL access to your DD, which probably means cancelling your planned move towards your PILs' home, whilst also keeping your DH onside with you.

I am putting this idea out there in case it might help you to accomplish both: maybe your DH would be able to hear and accept the message that you absolutely want your DD to learn that her boundaries, and that the boundaries you set for her, must absolutely be respected by everyone, and that because your BIL has shown clear disregard for your boundaries by touching her face and continuing to feed her something you didn't want fed to her, that is already enough that you need to change your plans and cancel the move, even before the towel incident. Allowing BIL time with her would teach your DD that her boundaries, and your boundaries around her, can be transgressed by others, and that you and your DH will not keep her safe from such transgressions. You need your DH to support you, and his daughter, by going along with this.

This approach might allow you to temporarily put aside the topic of whether your BIL had any perverse intent around the towel incident, or whether he was merely being clumsy, while also firmly enforcing the boundary of no contact between BIL and DD for the time being.

Hopefully in time your DH will be able to see the bigger picture and you will be able to work out together what other measures to take, but the short term dilemma needs to get resolved first.

@Verity35 sadly same happened to me. My mum knew I was telling the truth because of all the paraphernalia she found hidden behind a bath panel. The abuse would happen when she went to work in the eves. My step dad was very convincing and confident. She slapped me round the face when it all came out. Even now with me nearly 50 she will still say she did her best and it wasn't her fault. Op sorry to jump on your post. I did reply earlier on in the thread. Ita hard to think women wouldn't protect abusers for whatever reason but they do. For your MIL I would ask myself if she is the sort that let your FIL and BIL do as they please as she could have intervened in the earlier stages of face touching and feeding your dd. Lots of love and hugs to you xxxx

Also I was 6 years old when he started. But could have been earlier.

I didn't imagine so many people would comment. I want to say to anyone that's commented about there experiences how sorry I am. It's awful and thank you for commenting.

DD was fine after the trip and no signs of anything. I've asked DH about LD and he says no. A lot of bullying and insecurity. But he's not a really kind individual, if anything selfish. He doesn't believe in coronavirus. Won't help parents with shopping etc.

He mainly lived at ILs until the last year. And would sometimes still stay the night, after watching tv with them until late. What I found odd about staying over as well is no spare bedroom (as we were in it), he stays up until 3am and sleeps until midday usually. I told him DD would wake him up but he didn't care. I think he wanted to play with her on his own (not sure which way to take that) but I always got up with her, made her breakfast etc.
I don't think he planned the shower either, we weren't there for long so he couldn't have learnt her bedtime routine. Plus sometimes it was a bit off with being away anyway. I think he wanted a shower so took one. Also I didn't mention after his shower, while I was sorting the bath, he was walking around upstairs in his towel (DD still downstairs) with plenty on time to change. He asked me where DD was and I said downstairs still. Then went into ILs bedroom, I assumed to change and I assumed he was changed when FIL took her in there later.

The move is only in the planning stage, DH loves his job so was waiting to see if he could work remotely.
I have talked with DH and he does stand by my feelings and disagrees but understands. He thinks we can avoid any alone time at ILs, no over nights, until she's old enough to say no. He doesn't realise this will be 18+.

DH open to having a talk with ILs about BILs behavior but I worry it would start a family fight. But ILs adore DD and would do anything for more contact.