Inappropriate BIL behavior?

[confusedm1]

Long story here. I don’t have anyone else to get advice from about this so hoping MN can give me some. I’m ready to be told IABU. I’ve had some postnatal anxiety so I’m not sure if I’m being unnecessarily worried.

Parent in-laws live 10 hours away. BIL lives in a small flat very close to them, visits most days, he basically lives there half the time. He’s middle-age, has social anxiety, doesn’t work or see any friends or extended family, no girlfriend. From what I can gather he spends a lot of time on the internet and sees his parents and that’s about it. He’s had drug problems in the past and frequently has suicidal thoughts. Until below I thought he was a nice, quiet man who had a rough life. Now I don’t no what to think.

I’m a FTM to a 2 year old DD, who is also the family’s 1st GC. Me and DH visited in-laws before lockdown.
BILs actions towards DD made me uncomfortable straight away. He would constantly touch her face, I mean all the time and pat her head like a dog. He would lie on the floor so DD could climb him. Try to tickle her at the time. He was way more involved than any other family member. But I put it down to me being over protective.
He would also put food on her highchair but not stuff I would normally give her so I would say “please don’t give her that” and he would say “no she’s fine.” I also asked him not to touch her face all the time he said “yes I can.” He would stay overnight at the in-laws, sleep on the sofa. I think this was so he could be there when she got up in the morning. If she took a tumble he would jump in and grab her to console her, before me or DH had a chance to. It’s almost like he wants to be her parent.
It was odd but I put all this down to him never having much interaction with baby’s, this was his first time seeing her and my anxiety.

So then on the last night we were there, I was getting her bath ready at night. BIL has just had a shower, again he did this sometimes (no Idea why but everyone thought it was normal). My FIL took DD into there bedroom, where BIL was. I heard her crying so went in. My heart fell out of my body at this point. DD was crawling up BILs body who was only wearing a towel and not covering himself very well. FIL grabbed DD, said “I’ll take her downstairs” and pretty much ran out. I think he realised it looked doughy. I should have had words with him then about it but I didn’t and left the room.

I told DH everything and my feelings about BIL but we go round and round. Ending in “so basically your saying my brothers a peado” NO but I cant ignore my feelings. DH agrees this is unacceptable behavior from BIL but to just leave it now and have words if anything else happens next time we visit. It could all be a misunderstanding. I have this bad feeling about BIL, I can’t explain it. I never had it before DD. A feeling of deep dread in my gut.

We plan to move soon (delayed by CV) to be near in-laws, they want to look after her while I’m a work which would be great and save money. But I’ll be worried constantly about BIL being there. Watching her alone while MIL pops to shop or something. I sway between thinking IABU and it’s good he wants to be so involved. Or I need to protect her and be cautious. I would feel absolutely terrible if anything happened, it’s every parents worst nightmare.

So WWYD and AIBU?

I don't know if BIIL is a paedo - none of us do

I have always been impatient and a bit 'for god's sake' with people imagining paedos on every corner - but they are out there. And your gut feeling is a powerful resource - I think of it as a sixth sense sometimes - to be listened to.

I think this. Whether or not BIL is having innapropriate thoughs or not and whether or not FIL is enabling of this (or worse), what's felt is felt and you cannot unsee or unfeel what has happened. If you move there, you will FOREVER be anxious and uncomfortable about leaving your DD at your PILS and this will eventually lead to a family falling out. It just will. And you will be putting pressure on your marriage because you are going to want your DH to be on side, which on one hand, he should be, bit on the other, it's his brother and if he genuinely has no concerns - it's a big ask to get him to ban his own brother from being with DD.

So the ONLY advice that anyone can really give you is not to move. Because everything else is just speculation.

it's a shit situation. Sorry.

My twin brother adores DD and constantly plays, tickles and cuddles her. I trust him with her completely. However if I ever had a gut feeling something wasn’t right or I was uncomfortable by something, then I would make sure their relationship became different.

I wouldn't move closer to them, especially if your DH won't back you in your concerns and is prioritising his parents' 'feelings' over your daughter's safety.

Your BIL is quite possibly a paedophile: his boundaries are well off, his behaviour is deeply concerning, and he doesn't think he has to listen to you about your own daughter. Your gut is screaming about him and his behaviour. That's happening for a reason; listen to it.

I would refuse to move closer, and I certainly wouldn't be using your inlaws as childcare as your BIL will have unsupervised access to your child if you do. They will pick him over your valid concerns.

Maybe rethink your plans to move closer if your DH is being wishy-washy about this. Your dd's safety is more important.

Might it be worth contacting the NSPCC to get anonymous but professional advice on how to handle the situation, especially in terms of communicating with your DP. It's delicate and you don't want it to become a massive rift bwetween you two. I suppose you want to be trying to get accross, 'no I am not saying he's a paedo' but you want to take steps to safeguard BIL & DD. Also, the professional view may well validate your concerns and that would back you up, make you feel more secure in your assertions. Which, I suspect may well be valid BTW.

No chance.What if the PIL looked after dd then hid the fact that he was being inappropriate at their house so you never knew?

BIL may be a paedophile. He may have learning difficulties. He may just be a bit eccentric and not understand social boundaries.

But whatever he is, he ignored your requests to stop doing something - and something in his behaviour has made you feel uncomfortable.

You don't need to justify that feeling to anyone and that includes your DH - we have strong reactions to things at times. And all you can do is put yourself in a situation where you can minimise contact and keep your DD safe.

This isn't about labels OP.

You were frozen by what you saw.
That is the emotion to reflect on.

Posters on here will always rage about not seeing the obvious and being alarmist.
The overwhelming majority fortunately are not obtuse.

My girls when small would have been surrounded by older male cousins and uncles and whilst I have a well attuned 'gut' I never ever felt it twinge.

I have felt a warning a couple of times in my younger days, which served me well.

Your frozen reaction is key to this.

I would not be leaving your daughter in this house under any circumstances.

I appreciate this in unfortunate.

Fucking hell that's awful. You might not be saying he's a paedophile OP but I am. Well, I'm not saying he's done anything but that's so dodgy. What the hell is wrong with your husband?
I wouldn't be moving if you're husband is so blind to the possibility of this.

Putting food on her high chair that you don't approve of is the beginning of grooming. Do not move. Do not leave your precious, tiny DD alone with in laws, ever. Please.

“ But whatever he is, he ignored your requests to stop doing something - and something in his behaviour has made you feel uncomfortable.”

This!

Maybe he is an over-affectionate uncle. However,, you tingly senses sent out warning signals. Don’t ignore them.

Please listen to your instincts & the majority of pp.

I have worked with adult survivors of sexual abuse. I cannot tell you if your BIL is a paedophile.

I can tell you that nearly every single survivor I worked with was abused by a member of their family. A brother, father, uncle, grandparent, good family friend. I have worked with women who were passed around their fathers, stepfathers, uncles, grandfathers, older brothers and even on to paedophile rings. And nobody knew it was happening to them, or when they spoke up they were told they were lying, and then labelled as naughty.

You are already experiencing the dichotomy of it can't be possible that a family member could mean any harm, I must be wrong. That is one of the ways the abuse happens and continues to happen. A child groomed from a baby, as a pp said earlier, to think uncle touches me a lot, to believe it's ok for men to touch her, to believe that because it's allowed to happen in a safe place it must be ok, to believe that this must mean she is the 'bad' person in all of this, to internalise all of those feelings.

Sometimes in families the men abuse in pairs - it is not beyond the impossible that your FIL is also an abuser, that may be why he picked you DD up when you saw what was happening. It looked like he was protecting her, but maybe he was protecting himself and his opportunities.

It's so hard to grasp just how much this goes on, but please believe me when I say that it does. Do not take the chance that it could happen to your daughter. If you feel something is wrong, then something is wrong. Let your DD grow up with an assertive parent who is prepared to make decisions to protect their child, even if those decisions may not please everyone. In that way your DD will be safe, and will grow up with the autonomy to be assertive about herself and not vulnerable to any kind of abuse.

Unfortunately if you’re going to keep her safe I think you might have to manage without as much of a support system as you would like.

That is going to be a shit situation in itself.

Perhaps you need to think about strengthening the support you have where you are at the moment?

@GrumpyHoonMain

Give your head a wobble. You are accusing your husband’s entire family of being pedophiles over a 2 yo climbing excitedly over her uncle while he was wearing a towel; and her uncle doting on her. My DN at the same age insisted on my newlywed DH to change her nappy; is he a pedophile too for doing it?

I think you are jumping to far too many conclusions over what is essentially a first meeting with your in-laws. It’s inappropriate to even think about leaving your dd with them after just meeting them the once as they haven’t built up a relationship with her or you yet. You need to meet them again, keep an eye out, and then see how the interactions are — I bet he won’t be as interested meeting her a second or third time.

Excitedly??? She was crying.....

You don't need to justify that feeling to anyone and that includes your DH

If my DH suddenly decided that he didn't want our DC to have anything to do with a member of my family then I think I would expect some sort of justification for that. I'm pretty sure most people would.
I agree with everyone who says that OP shouldn't leave her DD with her DH's family if she's not comfortable doing so. But it's perfectly natural for her DH to be upset by the suggestion that his own Brother might a paedophile. It's also not unreasonable for him want to understand OP's rationale for thinking along those lines.

TRUST TOUR INSTINCTS!! This has literally made me feel ill! Do not, under any circumstances allow your DD to be looked after by any of them. It sent alarm bells ringing in my head.

What stood out was that your FIL clearly read the bedroom scene the same way you did, alarm, to the extent of rushing your daughter away fromhis own son. It's not just your gut feeling; it was his too.

I think you and DH need to talk to FIL about BIL;s behaviour with children and see what else he has to say. Maybe its not the first time he's felt uneasy about BIL's OTT interest in children.

I'm afraid that in your shoes I'd shelve the idea of moving house close to the PILS, because of BIL having closer, easier access to your DD in their house.

@GrumpyHoonMain

Give your head a wobble. You are accusing your husband’s entire family of being pedophiles over a 2 yo climbing excitedly over her uncle while he was wearing a towel; and her uncle doting on her. My DN at the same age insisted on my newlywed DH to change her nappy; is he a pedophile too for doing it?

I think you are jumping to far too many conclusions over what is essentially a first meeting with your in-laws. It’s inappropriate to even think about leaving your dd with them after just meeting them the once as they haven’t built up a relationship with her or you yet. You need to meet them again, keep an eye out, and then see how the interactions are — I bet he won’t be as interested meeting her a second or third time.

Oh and also he's her uncle by blood but has never met her before! You're saying this as though she was happily climbing all over a familiar family member.

She was with a man she'd never met before who was naked, covered only by a towel, and she was CRYING

confusedm1 Wed 24-Jun-20 21:00:07
I think I could get away with ILs not looking after her because the house isn't safe for a toddler and she loves nursery here.
..........
Well if your daughter loves nursery where you are, why move to be near ILs? If you want to move to a bigger house or something like that, find one in your locality.

My FIL took DD into there bedroom, where BIL was. I heard her crying so went in. My heart fell out of my body at this point. DD was crawling up BILs body who was only wearing a towel and not covering himself very well. FIL grabbed DD, said “I’ll take her downstairs” and pretty much ran out

Your FIL took her in....handed her over to BIL....then watched until YOU walked in on them.
Your in-laws are well aware of whatever 'issues' are affecting BIL - and they choose to keep quiet and pretend there's nothing wrong...so BIL has never received the help he should have.

Your husband needs to wake up.
If i were you i'd speak to my police friend and get their view - your husband will be suitably shocked by the reply and he won't be able to give the conditioned response of sticking his head in the sand.

You don't need to take your dd away from her extended family at all- it sounds like you have rock solid 'reasons' for not having IL's do your childcare when you move (If you've said whether it's set in stone yet I've missed it) and you can visit them with DD. As long as you can get your DH on board to be firm about boundaries. So if you tell BIL DD shouldn't have a food he's giving her and he tries to give it to her anyway you're there to say 'NO BIL, I've just asked you not to!' And if he carries on 'NO BIL! STOP! I'm telling you not to, you can't do that!' Same with tickling, touching faces or anything else you're uncomfortable about. You would obviously avoid like the plague another scenario in which your BIL could be near her after he's showered or she's bathing etc, day visits of an hour or so and NEVER unattended by you or your DH (if you can get him on board, if not you have big problems that must be addressed between you first). If you are asking BIL to stop in front of IL's and he's not listening you can easily address those concerns with IL's without accusing BIL of any kind of nasty inappropriateness and see how they respond to that.
But still, trust your instincts and never leave them alone with dd. Don't be guilted or cajoled or worn down into it. Your instincts are there for a reason and you have good reasons to be wary right now.

Please please trust your instincts.

Managing without a support network is hard but you will build a support network through friends you make along the way especially using a nursery. There are many advantages of that support network over family, as you've found boundaries become much harder to enforce when it's family. It doesn't have to be as serious as inappropriate behaviour it could just be difference in opinion over diet, discipline or screentime. If you're paying for a service you agree the service, if it's family helping they may decide they know best and it's very difficult to argue the point when they are doing you a favour.

You still have family, grandparents can continue to visit

Of course you have to be on the safe side. Of course you have to be careful. But please be balanced and reasonable before you do anything which could potentially cause irreparable damage within the family unnecessarily.

My DB is incredibly introverted as a result of bullying at school, he has so little confidence and he doesn't have a job. But he does have a heart of gold and fills him time running errands for elderly neighbours and the like. He feels value by being useful. He can't really converse with adults (he's worried of making a fool of himself and he's too shy). But he has come into his own since I had DS. He has the patience of a saint playing with him, lets DS run rings around him and they have fun together. It's like DB has found someone who doesn't judge him and that's given him a smidge of confidence to take the lead on nappy changing, doing feeds, etc.

Everyone who sees them together says DB would be an amazing nursery worker, but I see responses on here and it's why I could never encourage it. He couldn't explain himself succinctly if ever questioned because he'd panic and clam up. His self esteem is so low he'd assume he must have got something wrong even if it was a normal question. It breaks my heart.

Your BIL didn't take your DD in with him. It was FIL. Why? It could just be people weren't thinking. It doesn't mean it has to be sinister.

I'm not defending the indefensible, but there are some pretty big accusations going on here when it was you FIL who was responsible for the worst thing, not BIL?

Speaking as a survivor of csa by my uncle, who abused me whilst I was at my grandparents house, this has triggered a lot for me.
Please do not ever let your daughter be alone with this man.
Please do not trust your IL’s to put her needs first.
Please don’t.