To tell you why 'live' teaching isn't the be all

[CrunchyCrumpet]

Given the preference for 'live' teaching on MN I wanted to dispel some of the misconceptions widely held on this as its entirely possible we'll see a mixture of in-school and remote learning going forwards.

Research shows us that there is no significant difference in learning outcomes between remote live lessons (with the teacher facilitating learning online) and other methods of remote learning (for instance narrated powerpoints, use of videos and/or instruction sheets). Interestingly it would seem that a recording showing the teachers face actually detracts from the learning.

What matters most is the quality of that teaching and whether it builds on the prior knowledge of the students and how that knowledge is assessed. All students are unique and need different learning methods to optimise their learning, in a class of 33 students the ideal is to get a mix of approaches to remote learning (worth noting here that school policy will influence that 'mix'). One of the huge positives of remote learning is the emphasis it can place on the development of independent learning skills.

Access to technology in of itself is a huge barrier to learning during these times, it is a shame that the free laptops promised were restricted to incredibly narrow criteria.

We can't replicate the classroom experience, however we can take what we know works and adapt it for remote learning. Something that takes a lot of work and a lot of trial and error with the tech.

Sorry that is so long! There are of course many other factors that interplay with the different approaches taken, I've focused on the learning here alone. Teachers know their students and will select the best approach available to them within the boundaries of school policy. As many PPs have said, if you have questions or problems with an approach speak to your school.

RemoteLearningRapidEvidenceAssessment.pdf EEF

@noblegiraffe

he needs staff contact.

This doesn’t have to be a live lesson though, does it? Work not being marked wouldn’t be solved by a live lesson either.

What did his college say when you/he requested feedback?

The school told us feedback wasn't needed and shouldn't be expected. The important thing was to do the work. I have now asked teachers individually for more support and feedback - despite the school discouraging it - we shall see how that pans out.

As it stands all we get it twinkl worksheets. After 3 months this is a disgrace IMO.

So you have switched to Oak Academy or BBC lessons?

The school told us feedback wasn't needed and shouldn't be expected.

Back at the start this was expected to be a couple of weeks’ closure, to be fair.

Schools still not providing any feedback on work is unacceptable (but if your kids aren’t doing the work then there wouldn’t be feedback).

Some parents I’ve noticed seem to think that it’s poor that their kids’ remote secondary work is ‘rarely marked’ by a teacher, but one piece of work marked about every two weeks would be fairly standard at secondary.

@noblegiraffe

The school told us feedback wasn't needed and shouldn't be expected.

Back at the start this was expected to be a couple of weeks’ closure, to be fair.

Schools still not providing any feedback on work is unacceptable (but if your kids aren’t doing the work then there wouldn’t be feedback).

Some parents I’ve noticed seem to think that it’s poor that their kids’ remote secondary work is ‘rarely marked’ by a teacher, but one piece of work marked about every two weeks would be fairly standard at secondary.

That advice regarding feedback was on their website till last week. The feedback of - your dc is falling behind - was the most useful. And it's the kids who tell me their work is never marked, or even acknowledged ...they feel invisible. I'm hoping things will improve going forward but as it stands the school has been pretty poor in their handling of this situation.

@CrunchyCrumpet

I've posted mainly as its frustrating to see people question why students can't follow the same timetable as normal just replacing classroom lessons with 'live' remote lessons.

This is actually exactly what we’ve done right from 23rd March! I’m not saying it’s the right, or only, way to go, however, it is possible and has been very successful.... Although it’s been difficult (I have my own primary age kids at home), the ability to explain live, discuss, collaborate in teams and check understanding has been fantastic for the students.

carrie0707

What kind of school do you teach in?

And it's the kids who tell me their work is never marked, or even acknowledged ...they feel invisible.

I’m sure they do, I already said it was unacceptable that your DC are still getting zero feedback on their work.

That’s not a lack of live lesson issue though.

@noblegiraffe

And it's the kids who tell me their work is never marked, or even acknowledged ...they feel invisible.

I’m sure they do, I already said it was unacceptable that your DC are still getting zero feedback on their work.

That’s not a lack of live lesson issue though.

But it is lack of contact - and I am not saying live lessons are the only way, I am saying they'd go a long way to resolving our issues, I'm sure there are other options but their school has yet to encourage all their teachers to move beyond a textbook suggestion, or a silent power point - 12 weeks on - it's not very motivating, they need more staff contact.

I'm sure there are other options

Like the teachers marking some of your kids’ work. I agree. That’s a more easily solved issue than introducing a full timetable of live lessons.

@noblegiraffe

I'm sure there are other options

Like the teachers marking some of your kids’ work. I agree. That’s a more easily solved issue than introducing a full timetable of live lessons.

So you have marked work as a substitute for teaching?

Me? I’ve marked work in addition to remote teaching which has not involved live lessons. My Y12s are doing pretty well.

@noblegiraffe thanks for that link. I will check it out - looks better than anything our school have provided.

In NI, the department for education have said the priority is for learning and teaching to continue. This goes somewhat against the Gov saying 'suspend the curriculum'

My main issue is the lack of effort from our school. If the head had made a statement at the outset to stay 'we will not be engaging for xyz reasons. What we will do is abc...'. That would have at least set expectations. I feel so sorry for dc as they don't feel valued by teachers at all

Thanks for this OP.

I have seen a decline in both submission of work and its quality since going live. And the quiet ones have gone back into their shells. But it seems to pacify vocal parents.

Conversely, the work my sixth formers are doing independently at home is miles better than it was because a)I am checking it and b)they aren't distracted while doing it.

I worry about passive kids zoning out , I worry about screen time. Most of all , I worry that no one has asked teachers for any feedback because if we say it doesn't work well, we are being obstructive.

My subject is hard to teach live. It much much better suits a flipped learning model.

The thing is that parents can now scrutinise far more what teachers are doing and providing. I have a friend (ex teacher!) who sends me messages about my colleagues' poor live teaching/ spelling etc..

Prior to this, she wouldn't have been able to inspect their lessons!

Many parents have now become like Ofsted.. without the pedagogical knowledge.

I a not a primary teacher but I do know that Twinkl is widely used, well regarded. Are parents bothered if that's what teachers are 'normally' setting?

@lljkk You're right in classroom contact can tell you who is confused or if you know your class very well who's hiding it. It is almost impossible to tell that via a live remote lesson unfortunately.

@Fuzzywuzzyface successful remote learning is not a direct copy paste from the classroom. Some things transfer easily such as recall questions at the start of every lesson, however its the assessment and feedback that is particularly challenging. You've said that every teacher should be able to teach across all media, that requirement happened almost overnight back in March. Barring online tutors that need to teach across all media wasn't there before. Since then every teacher has had to learn, reflect and change their approach. This is easier for some than others of course and as you have in any industry there will be individuals who struggle or lack engagement. As many threads have pointed out in these circumstances you speak to the school.

I haven't seen it mentioned here as I'm still reading through responses but its worth remembering that private school class sizes in secondary average around 12 whilst in state secondary that jumps to 22 (although in my particular area its closer to 29). As an example, an extended exam question takes 10 minutes to mark so that is 2 hrs vs. 3.7 hrs (larger class that goes up to nearly 5 hrs). For one class....

@museumum I wanted to concentrate on the perceived learning through live remote learning, there's prevalence of people on MN that seem to think this solves everything. It doesn't. However, there needs to be a mix between all different types of remote learning to promote the best outcomes for all. The additional element of connection is of course completely right as well. Tutors/class teachers, dependent on whether you're in primary/secondary, are essential for facilitating that connection to the school and their peers. Whilst this is an added bonus during subject specific lessons, and indeed peer learning is hugely beneficial, the learning is the ultimate objective.

@mynamesnotsam don't be afraid to be that parent! Is your Y4 having any direct contact from their class teacher?

@GazeboParty I don't think you would get any teacher disagree that all children deserve an education. Its widely held at the moment that there is no 'assumptions', there is no common ground for any student, same storm different boats and all that. It will be interesting to see of course what provisions are made for the current Y10/Y12 however, admissions tutors will take each application on its own merits and so they will want to see what your child did during lockdown. Did they complete all work set? Were they able to improve their independent study skills, something as a Y12 they are expected to do anyway.

@UmbrellaHat

And I hated doing it. I really, really hated it. I hated the thought that I could be recorded, that parents might be critical, that I looked fat, that it was out in the world forever, that my ex (now a parent at my school) might have a laugh at it. I know it sounds pathetic Yes, too right, it does sound pathetic. So the OP who is peddling 'evidence' is to try to hide the real reason why teachers make all sorts of excuses to avoid it.

@UmbrellaHat apologies but are you not familiar with the term evidence? It is of course subject to further examination and of course was undertaken on the whole based on remote learning before lockdown however I made it perfectly clear that I was addressing the fixation of some here on MN that 'live' remote lessons are the bare minimum. At no point would any business force an employee to record their image or voice, consent is needed for any recording to take place. Teachers have every right, along with every other employee in the country, to refuse that consent. It is not 'pathetic' by any stretch.

posted mainly as its frustrating to see people question why students can't follow the same timetable as normal just replacing classroom lessons with 'live' remote lessons.

I was fine with this. But my kids had 10 weeks with just homework on an app. No narrated powerpoints (that requires ‘special training’ apparently). No videos showing the teacher, no interactive checking ins.

Now 12 weeks in there have been a couple of team lessons and my y12 has been in for 2 hours.

Y12 has fared best as she is doing subjects she is very interested in and strong in. She had been doing 5 hours of self directed study per subject before lockdown. She is missing the group discussions most.

Y7 lost the will to live around May half-term. Hasn’t been in secondary long enough, some subjects still very new and no contact or feedback (emailed teachers and no response).

I work in HE. Please don’t treat parents as if they don’t understand learning theory. State school kids, in many cases, have been let down and are behind. So even if we move to blended, they will need help to catch up and also time to adjust to more interactive teaching which has not to date been offered and will now be offered when the relationship between them and their teachers has ceased.

@Gywnfluff I will agree its been depressing to see the vast chasm that represents different approaches to remote learning with no contact on one side and full live timetable on the other. What your children have experienced isn't acceptable and there is going to need to be a lot of work put in going forwards for sure. I would like to say I didn't mean to come across that parents don't understand learning theory, I wanted to point out the available evidence that shows a blend of remote learning styles tailored to a class seems to be the best way to optimise learning outcomes. Many on MN seem to hold 100% live teaching as the be all and were complaining that their child hadn't receive this when in most cases they had a mix. This excludes instances where there has not been the case.

to hold 100% live teaching as the be all and were complaining that their child hadn't receive this when in most cases they had a mix.

I can imagine this is tough on teachers and on kids as well. And accept some kids have no tech/WiFi but more should have been done to interact. Blogs and special lockdown projects didn’t fill the gaps.

I’m not a teacher and I don’t pretend that my children are anything but privileged, in that they have their own laptops and a good wifi broadband and are able to access all the remote learning opportunities their school may offer.

But I do know that my able, engaged Y10 child is not getting enough from the distance learning her school is offering. She went to school last week for her one day per fortnight and her first words on getting into the car at the end of the day we’re not about seeing her friends, or how strange it was to be in school, but “it was great - we talked about X topic, and I thought I’d understood it... but now I really do!”

What she had learned was all absolutely correct, but it wasn’t the whole story. She got so much more from the face-to-face discussion, the ability to talk around the subject, to hear other viewpoints and explore other angles. So I’m not asking for a full live timetable. But I do want her remote learning to be backed up with a live lesson every now and again - once a fortnight if not once a week - and for every subject rather than just the core of English and maths. I’d far rather she have that and no time in school, to free up those school slots for students who can’t or won’t access online learning, than a half-hearted ‘come in twice before the end of term, but only for English and maths and ‘general support’.

At no point would any business force an employee to record their image or voice, consent is needed for any recording to take place.
you are half right here. most people in professional jobs have gotten used to be on video several hours per day very quickly. you don’t have to give your consent (you are not forced), but not giving it in my job means you are refusing to do your job, so grounds for dismissal.
i‘m all over intranet and some social media sites in the moment. didn’t belong to my job mid march, does now. things have changed, tough luck, i can resign or do it.

[quote CrunchyCrumpet]@mynamesnotsam don't be afraid to be that parent! Is your Y4 having any direct contact from their class teacher?

@GazeboParty I don't think you would get any teacher disagree that all children deserve an education. Its widely held at the moment that there is no 'assumptions', there is no common ground for any student, same storm different boats and all that. It will be interesting to see of course what provisions are made for the current Y10/Y12 however, admissions tutors will take each application on its own merits and so they will want to see what your child did during lockdown. Did they complete all work set? Were they able to improve their independent study skills, something as a Y12 they are expected to do anyway.[/quote]
There's independent study and then there's been left to it. Independent study at Uni - is not the same - there are weekly tutorials even for the most independent reading courses, no way would you ever be left for 12 weeks without human contact.

I understand that for a very small amount of teachers there may be good reason why they wouldn't want to be videoed, but for most surely this is one of the best ways to do their job at the minute