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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To tell you why 'live' teaching isn't the be all

207 replies

CrunchyCrumpet · 19/06/2020 20:52

Given the preference for 'live' teaching on MN I wanted to dispel some of the misconceptions widely held on this as its entirely possible we'll see a mixture of in-school and remote learning going forwards.

Research shows us that there is no significant difference in learning outcomes between remote live lessons (with the teacher facilitating learning online) and other methods of remote learning (for instance narrated powerpoints, use of videos and/or instruction sheets). Interestingly it would seem that a recording showing the teachers face actually detracts from the learning.

What matters most is the quality of that teaching and whether it builds on the prior knowledge of the students and how that knowledge is assessed. All students are unique and need different learning methods to optimise their learning, in a class of 33 students the ideal is to get a mix of approaches to remote learning (worth noting here that school policy will influence that 'mix'). One of the huge positives of remote learning is the emphasis it can place on the development of independent learning skills.

Access to technology in of itself is a huge barrier to learning during these times, it is a shame that the free laptops promised were restricted to incredibly narrow criteria.

We can't replicate the classroom experience, however we can take what we know works and adapt it for remote learning. Something that takes a lot of work and a lot of trial and error with the tech.

Sorry that is so long! There are of course many other factors that interplay with the different approaches taken, I've focused on the learning here alone. Teachers know their students and will select the best approach available to them within the boundaries of school policy. As many PPs have said, if you have questions or problems with an approach speak to your school.

RemoteLearningRapidEvidenceAssessment.pdf EEF

OP posts:
SmileEachDay · 21/06/2020 09:31

I really struggle to believe so many children don't have access to the internet when so many have I phones, X boxes, psp's and other gaming devices

50% in my school do not have adequate access to a devices and/or internet access.

Serin · 21/06/2020 09:36

My teacher DH is coming up to retirement and whilst he is able to put together a decent PowerPoint, IT has never been his forte.
He has learned to teach his full curriculum over MS teams, even does registration, sets homework, exams, marking, and virtual parents evenings.
Every lesson has required him to put together new resources.
In the assessments they have marked so far, his students are no further behind than previous year groups.
He is knackered.
Hanging on until the summer holidays.

He works in a private school, DD works in a state secondary school and has shockingly little to do. Online learning is not even a thing there.

Once again it is the poorest who suffer most, educationally and probably socially.

Neighbourfriendneighbour · 21/06/2020 09:42

My DD is year 9 and very conscientious. We're lucky that she has space to work and a (2nd hand) chromebook to enable her to access lessons. She doesnt seem to mind not having live lessons, in fact she normally starts working around 10.30 so wouldnt like early ones, but she does like the loom lessons (but I appreciate they are very time consuming for teachers, and dont expect every lesson to be like that) . However one teacher sets pages and pages of very time consuming work, but never marks it, or respond to any email questions they have. Shes getting despondent about spending hours on something without ever getting any feedback. Thankfully this is not one if her option subjects so weve agreed to ditch that.

lljkk · 21/06/2020 09:44

Was a lecturer on R4 just now saying that without live F2F lectures you don't get the eye contact that tells you that people are confused & didn't understand. It's the teachers who need the live F2F feedback about whether the lesson delivery worked.

Teen DS is a lazy procrastinator and needs structure, and being physically present to avoid all the distractions at home. He's terribly extrovert and misses people. I've always said success at school depends on the social life & DS doesn't have a social life, right now.

Laziness is a virtue because it makes people learn to do things better and faster. In his PT job DS is a really hard worker and he gets praise for being polite & engaged in class. But at home he's floundered due to the lack of structure. He does better with interaction as his learning style.

GuyFawkesDay · 21/06/2020 09:44

So the kids with X boxes etc and no laptops who just aren't doing the work....how do you suggest we do that?

Lack of engagement from some kids and parents is a huge issue

GazeboParty · 21/06/2020 09:50

I don't think we have ever been asked if we have adequate technology at home for Zoom or Loom or Teams. The technology has not been the problem - the teachers told dd's class of Year 12s last week they just do not want to do Zoom and they won't do it. Not great role models.

Serin · 21/06/2020 09:51

SmileEachDay
Except this is not about spas and swimming pools, it is about children's education and futures.
The poorest are falling further behind and that is not acceptable.
There are some ways around it if people can work creatively.
DHs school is twinned with 2 under performing state schools and has shared its learning platforms and resources with them. The problem is there are still families out there who still lack access to the internet.

Do you feel that state school pupils should just shut up and accept that they are not spa material?

SmileEachDay · 21/06/2020 09:56

Except this is not about spas and swimming pools, it is about children's education and futures.
I know. It’s an analogy.

The poorest are falling further behind and that is not acceptable

I agree. That’s been happening for years.

There are some ways around it if people can work creatively
DHs school is twinned with 2 under performing state schools and has shared its learning platforms and resources with them. The problem is there are still families out there who still lack access to the internet
50 % of my kids don’t have adequate access to a device and/or the internet. This is where the spa analogy is useful - that very basic issue just isn’t a thing in private schools, ever.

Do you feel that state school pupils should just shut up and accept that they are not spa material?
I don’t think there should be a two tier education system at all.

Fuzzywuzzyface · 21/06/2020 09:58

@rawlikesushi

The comparisons with private schools is tedious.

That's because they get £15000pa (or whatever the fees are) compared to about £5k pa in the state sector, so they're already better resources.

Their teachers are keen to do live lessons because if they can't collect the fees, they're out of a job.

Their students are academically able, are supported by motivated parents, and have access to the internet and tech at home.

How many of their teachers are delivering food, supporting vulnerable and profoundly SEN children?

Surely the point is irrelevant how much the parents pay in fees. Let's get down to the basic point.. a teacher should be able to teach across all media, if you are think that the quality of your teaching comes across poorly in a 'live' situation that parents and cohorts can view outside your classroom, then quite clearly your teaching is not up to standard. Not all teachers are equal unfortunately and it is our children who suffer.
Aragog · 21/06/2020 09:58

I have been on the receiving end of live lessons for a training course during lockdown and I really didn't find it beneficial.

Much better would have been a prerecorded video lesson, with activities and tasks to try, and then the chance to feedback or a q and a session in a small group.

I know many people who have found the same.

To be fair though none of our parents have even suggested live lessons. Some have said they're glad we haven't gone down that route as they've had it with an other child and it just hasn't worked.

I find the obsession with live lessons is huge on mumsnet but not in the real world.

As a school we decided early on not to use live lessons for a whole raft of reasons. It's just not appropriate for our school community. Several weeks in and I still believe this is the case. Luckily so do our parents.

Many posters only see their own family's situation when considering them. They don't think of the children sat at home sharing one old device with two parents and other siblings, using a PAYG contract and no stable Wi-Fi. Or families where the only device is a parents work one and they can't use it. Or where several siblings need access to live lessons (which do use a lot of bandwidth to access) at the same time but the Wi-Fi can't cope, especially when mum and dad are also trying to work full time in-line too. Even the local independent schools have found live lessons aren't the best way forward in many many situations and few have used them for all lessons, often just for a q and a or a form session.

Unfortunately it's not just one or two in a school in these situations often either.

museumum · 21/06/2020 09:59

It’s not just about learning outcomes though is it? My 6 year old Is completely disconnected from school / his class / peers. He cant remember what class he’s in anymore (keeps asking when he moved into p3 - he hasn’t yet). He doesn’t have any connection to his teacher as all work is set by “the p2 team” as with the comments they make on our responses. I don’t know if we’ve ever had a reply from a teacher who knows who he is or not.
So I would like a weekly Video Class assembly or something To make that reconnection.

Aragog · 21/06/2020 10:03

The quality of teaching shouldn't change between the classroom and teachers giving lesson's online

Of course it does. Absolute nonsense to think they are even vaguely similar!

And lots of countries are NOT doing live lessons, and some totally scrapped them.

I have read comments like 'well in China they did live lessons all the time.' But it's not true at all. Lots of schools across the works never did live lessons. Lots tried and stopped. Lots found better ways. We took a lot of advice from a couple of teachers we knew who were working in China and were in a good position to advice us after they'd been doing it for a few weeks.
They advised not to bother doing it live as the pitfalls usually outweigh any benefits, especially for mixed catchments. Instead they recommended video lessons for core subjects with activities attached, which could be done either alongside or after the video, or as a stand alone for those struggling with Wi-Fi for video. We also followed other advice and that really helped and made us really think about what would work best for the school we were.

Aragog · 21/06/2020 10:10

We do videos of the teachers reading a story to their class, a weekly round up video and/or message with photos, we have a weekly videoed celebration assembly awarding reading certificates and a message from the head, etc. The pre recorded lesson videos are recorded (often voice only but sometimes face too) by staff across school with their names attached - and actually this is a good thing right now as transition means new teachers, so seeing and hearing them is a positive in many ways.
We have a weekly 'keep in touch' activity so children can send each other messages.
We post some work and all certificates achieved to the class blogs which all the children can see and comment on - lots send one another well done comments, etc.

All children have also had at least one telephone call with their teacher and will have at least one or two more.

For transition in these last few weeks there will be more videos from new teachers, etc.

I also hope to sort something from the current children - some form of message - to the children moving up to the next years.

mynamesnotsam · 21/06/2020 10:15

But my youngest child (y4) is getting no teaching (live or pre-recorded) at all from school, just a daily writing task and a maths worksheet that she gets no feedback on and links to some random you tube videos for topic work. The only teaching she is getting
is from my husband and I and we're working full time. She's generally conciencious and motivated but the lack of any feedback from school and the poor quality of the work they are setting it just dispiriting. I know I could complain to school but I don't want to be "that parent". This school is supposedly Ofsted outstanding and is is an area where there would be no problem with access to the internet and laptops or tablets.

GazeboParty · 21/06/2020 10:17

The comparisons with private schools is tedious. Sorry about that - we'll be on the coal face of that comparison next year when my kids apply to University - sorry our concerns bore you. Hmm But probably worse than that - our school which normally gets great results, nice leafy will be assumed to have provided excellent support to their pupils which they haven't...all kids deserve an education.
My kids can't put on their university application form - my normally very good school was particularly shit during the pandemic - please remember that when you assess my application.

GazeboParty · 21/06/2020 10:26

Just look through the slides my kids were sent for homework - no different to a textbook. No voice over. Really poor teaching imo, I can't believe this is what good looks like.

Sherlock02 · 21/06/2020 10:37

I think the problem was there was no time for planning and putting technology into place. For health reasons unfortunately my child did all of year 10 and 11 at home via internet live teaching.

This was a specialist education company that offered this service for the local council. It was fantastic. You could hear teacher but not see. Kids could ask questions and chat via text messages at the side, and they had ability to give kids access to Interact on screen. “Naughty” kids could get access taken away, and also be sent to the “headteacher”. One to one time with another teacher. A lovely retired teacher taught history and gave them extra lessons on a topic they were all very interested in.

She got mostly As. Still struggling with health but currently in university.

Appreciate this may not work for all, especially younger kids, was smaller classes and so probably not affordable for the government but for us was a positive experience.

buckeejit · 21/06/2020 10:49

My dc primary school has not contacted us once, just put worksheets online. Not a single lesson of any sort to teach anything new. I think pre recorded - even one or 2 lessons a week would be amazing.

I emailed the head & he was totally dismissive & not interested in engagement with parents whatsoever. I'm so disappointed. Considering contacting the board of governors about it.

noblegiraffe · 21/06/2020 10:54

Parents are finally seeing that education provision is patchy, poorly-resourced and some of it is poor quality.

Don’t think it will be any better or more consistent when the kids go back to school. It’s only now you’re actually seeing it because it’s in your living room.

What are you going to do about it in the long term?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3941702-Annoyed-your-kid-isn-t-having-zoom-lessons-or-school-contact-or-not-going-back-to-school-yet

GazeboParty · 21/06/2020 11:07

How does live teaching add value beyond what is in a textbook? Genuine question to teachers, a place to start thinking about how to improve distance learning provision.

echt · 21/06/2020 11:36

The technology has not been the problem - the teachers told dd's class of Year 12s last week they just do not want to do Zoom and they won't do it.

Safeguarding issues for staff. Their call and none of your business.

buckeejit · 21/06/2020 12:05

What is the safeguarding issue?

I understand that there are liabilities for teachers but schools near us have had parents sign a contract that children should be fully dressed & an adult present in the room to mitigate this risk. What else is the problem?

Are there safeguarding issues from seeing their teacher on video? I don't see how you can say none of your business when it's a genuine concern about children's education

Pipandmum · 21/06/2020 12:13

My daughter has mosty live lessons but a couple of the teachers pre record them. She enjoys the live ones more : the interaction between them all, the discussions that can often lead to new ideas etc. Is she learning more facts? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe more discussion based subjects benefit from being live, fact based not so much. But she is definitely less engaged with the pre recorded lessons.
The thing is there is still a lack of ANY lessons for so many, prerecorded or not.

noblegiraffe · 21/06/2020 12:15

The DfE funded a whole bloody school of video lessons, so have the BBC.

GazeboParty · 21/06/2020 12:33

@echt

The technology has not been the problem - the teachers told dd's class of Year 12s last week they just do not want to do Zoom and they won't do it.

Safeguarding issues for staff. Their call and none of your business.

GrinSays it all really!
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