to think the Foreign Secretary / Deputy Prime Minister should know a little bit of the history about Take a knee

[chomalungma]

twitter.com/matthewchampion/status/1273534016570957824

No - it's not from Game of Thrones. Even though he said he didn't know where it came from, maybe it was Game of Thrones.

I know that Colin Kaepernick took a knee during NFL games and this led to massive repercussions with Trump getting involved.

I know now that there is more of a history with Martin Luther King - but it's the recent history I am more aware of.

I do know that it's not Game of Thrones though.

But this is the same guy who didn't know the importance of the Dover - Calais ferry crossing.

The queen is our symbolic head and I'm pretty sure that people kneel before her

They bow or curtsey,

I think they only kneel when they are going to be knighted.

People should be able to express their support for black lives matter without having to kneel. It should be up to an individual. You can and should not force others to kneel or do anything else.

Many others would also feel uncomfortable to do this, and it should always be a choice.

People should be able to express their support for black lives matter without having to kneel. It should be up to an individual

Totally agree

But this is not what this thread is about. It's really about the ignorance of Dominic Raab on the meaning of the gesture in the current context of Black Lives Matter and the fact it has nothing to do with an act of submission.

But he's not the only one on this thread who seems to think that those black people and supporters who are taking a knee must be doing it as an act of submission.

Still - he

There are other ways to show support, and I for one would not kneel for anyone regardless of the reason. I care deeply about racial injustice, and I do support the cause in other ways, but I would not do this.

We live in a free and democratic country, we can choose what we are comfortable with, and how we show support.

I just wrote an essay reply to this, & lost it.
I read about this & was gobsmacked. I agree with OP, @Alanna1 & @PotholeParadise

The Foreign sec, has shown he is tone deaf, and his innate lack of tact & diplomacy, in a major global crisis on how best to react to the clear & agressive inequalities of treatment of Black & BAME people in society and by many police (worldwide).

The best, he could come up with to go with his placatory words of 'understanding our frustations' was to compare the worldwide protest symbol of 'taking the knee' which he didn't understand, as something coming from Game of Thrones, a book of fantasy.
Anyway, he is a very mild improvement? on his predeccesor the PM

Nobody insists anyone should take the knee. If you don't want to, don't. But, if he or other posters don't understand the history of 'kneeling or taking the knee' they just need to ask or google it - rather than jump to conclusions as to why protestors are using it as a symbolic stance.

Kneeling.

To God, for prayer, to show respect, honour and yes, maybe subservience (but remember, we are all equal in the eyes of God). In the past you had to be on both knees, now you can just bend down or bow your head, & even closing eyes is optional.
To royalty and the Queen, to show respect, honour (& subservience, if you are a royalist). You may also curtsy, bend or bow, if you are a man. In the past, women did a full curtsy.
In many BAME cultures (speaking for West Africa), you do it to show respect to elders (& husbands in the past) and honour them. Now you don't have to do a full kneeling, just curtsy or bend/bow.
Kneeling for punishment, as a form of discipline.
Single Kneeling on someone, is seen as a sign of oppression and power. It can be in the form of putting a foot on someone's back.
Taking the knee
Takes these in previous statements into consideration and owns the act. Respect to those who are fallen, and honour to those who are suffering and owning the oppressors' stance.

What I also don't understand, this symbolic stance, while it is not new, Colin Kaepernick, the US footballer, introduced a peaceful way of protesting, it is easy to social distant with, it is not permanent like Grafitti, almost anyone can join in, if they want to. But for some people, feel it is inappropriate - is it too peaceful? too simple? too hard to understand?
Yes, there is lots of work to do to make things better for all, not just for BAME people, to improve systems, everyday education (of kids & adults); for 'things' to change/improve constructively.

But Rome was not built in a day; proper debates & discussions are needed, with a wide range of everyday representatives, not governement party appointees, practical solutions needed to aired, agreed, and monitored short & long-term. & no, Serco and the big Audit companies cannot do this task .
Peace and Love

YABU to expect Raab to know anything.

This can just be added to the long list of things he doesn’t know about or understand.

The sentiment is the same, regardless of the origins of the kneeling aspect, if someone does not want to kneel, they should never feel forced.

It's bend the knee not take the knee in game of thrones. He doesn't even get that right

That's a great comment @squirrel134

Why is it acceptable to bully people into making a insignificant gesture just becase the race people say so

FFS - this is NOT about asking him to take the knee. It's about him knowing the basic reason behind it.

To talk about it being an act of submission is ridiculous - given the context

We are also forgetting that not everyone is a fan of BLM but care very much about racial injustice. BLM do not own this issue. Some of the hard left agenda leaves many very nervous about supporting them. Their position on trans rights, and bringing down the police force and capitalism may be an issue for any conservative for instance. I think this is much more complex than you are articulating so far in your posts op.

To blindly assume that we must all follow the same trail to racial equality is very flawed, and the cause will lose much support potentially with the secondary aims of BLM.

I think he knows exactly what it means and he's letting people know he doesn't think much of it. I won't be taking a knee for anyone and I find it cringe making when people do.

The position Americans take when listening to the national anthem and addressing the flag is how they show respect to their symbols.

The kneeling makes sense as a respectful contrast to that.

Without this cultural backdrop it makes sense that people in the UK would put in their own cultural understanding of kneeling, Royalty and churches (for some people).

That doesn't mean that people are disrespecting BLM but they shouldn't be expected to function within another countries cultural norms. Our shared language doesn't mean we are that similar culturally similar.

If people wish to share another countries cultural response this shouldn't be criticized either( obviously providing it doesn't break laws of next country).

Just to be clear I don't think that excuses the FS from not understanding the gesture.
It seems more likely he does understand but has been willfully ignorant.

I will never knee for anyone. I am glad the government is not condoning this submissive act.

hink this is much more complex than you are articulating so far in your posts op

It's not a complex issue.

Why are people taking the knee?

a) Showing support for the black lives movement / anti racism
b) As an act of submission to some authority

will never knee for anyone. I am glad the government is not condoning this submissive act

Who do you think it is submitting to?

I always thought the whole point of Colin Kaepernick's stance was that he refused to stand for the National Anthem, which in a country such as the US which sets such great store by emblems like the Anthem and flag, was a brave and meaningful action. I didn't think that the knee was the point. It wasn't that he kneeled, it was that he did not stand.

Yes, this. But the other thing is that in Kaepernick's sport of American football, 'taking a knee' is a kind of time out, a bit like kicking the ball into touch. So it's a gesture that says, 'OK, let's pause for a moment and have a think about how we proceed.' Which is what we should all be doing when it comes to structural inequality. I would take the knee without hesitation. It's not remotely subservient; in fact, it demonstrates a sensibility that is far loftier than any such idea imo.

I think it's extraordinary that Raab seemingly had no clue what eveyone has been referring to. I would almost think he must have been disingenuously insulting BLM, except that I'm not sure a man who doesn't appreciate the importance of the Dover-Calais crossing to trade with Europe has that level of guile.

'When people are doing it now, it very much means solidarity with BLM and has nothing to do with subservience.'

Yes, solidarity with a political activist movement that says 'We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain' aswell as defunding the police.

To 'take a knee' now has little to do with where it originated anyway and all to do with showing support to BLM which isn't the same as showing support to end racism. Maybe that's why Raab wasn't sure what it represents.

Out of interest op do you agree it's ok for people to choose not to 'take a knee' and do you understand that people can support equality without supporting the group BLM?

Out of interest op do you agree it's ok for people to choose not to 'take a knee' and do you understand that people can support equality without supporting the group BLM

Yes.

@chomalungma

hink this is much more complex than you are articulating so far in your posts op

It's not a complex issue.

Why are people taking the knee?

a) Showing support for the black lives movement / anti racism
b) As an act of submission to some authority

I got the impression that Raab was taking about his associations with kneeling as opposed to the history of it - an association that, like it or not, many people share.

People seem to forget that there are differences between the UK and the USA.

Who do you think it is submitting to?

It is starting to become a ‘whoever is not for us is against us’ gesture. I have seen footage of police officers at protests being asked to kneel. Occasionally one will refuse and it’s then ‘open season’ on that officer. It turns from being a voluntary act of solidarity to an expectation. Those police officers have been assigned to the protests - they aren’t protestors who chose to be there.

It's all just bullshit meaningless gestures anyway. Changing your FB profile, clapping for the NHS etc. Zero meaningful impact, just encourages virtue signalers.

got the impression that Raab was taking about his associations with kneeling as opposed to the history of it - an association that, like it or not, many people share

In that case, he has shown a complete lack of awareness as if he thinks that people are kneeling at the moment in submission (because he associated kneeling with that from Game of Thrones), then that would be a very strange thing for people to do.

If someone had asked him why he thinks people are kneeling and he said "well, it's to do with submission" and then someone asked him "but who would they be submitting to" - I would love to have heard his answer.

Zero meaningful impact, just encourages virtue signaler

I don't know - it's certainly promoted conversations, hasn't it...