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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think the Foreign Secretary / Deputy Prime Minister should know a little bit of the history about Take a knee

309 replies

chomalungma · 18/06/2020 11:17

twitter.com/matthewchampion/status/1273534016570957824

No - it's not from Game of Thrones. Even though he said he didn't know where it came from, maybe it was Game of Thrones.

I know that Colin Kaepernick took a knee during NFL games and this led to massive repercussions with Trump getting involved.

I know now that there is more of a history with Martin Luther King - but it's the recent history I am more aware of.

I do know that it's not Game of Thrones though.

But this is the same guy who didn't know the importance of the Dover - Calais ferry crossing.

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TinyPigeon · 18/06/2020 13:50

Really embarrassing for him not to know this! It's current affairs no matter what you think and if it's picked up internationally makes the UK look rather provincial. Insulting to the black community and those protesting not to think it worth googling before going on the radio.

If in doubt, don't open your mouth!

chomalungma · 18/06/2020 13:50

It may be cultural but to me it's a sign of submission or defeat. Not a sign of solidarity or successful campaigning

You don't think that its meaning has changed - especially given what people are seeing at the moment.

It was a powerful gesture at the football last night. I don't think anyone would have meant that it was a sign of defeat.

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chomalungma · 18/06/2020 13:52

I think there is a difference between 'kneeling' and 'taking a knee'.

Kneel before your God - so both knees on the ground.

Take a knee - just one knee.

Different poses. Different meaning.

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plantbasedvegan0912 · 18/06/2020 13:53

I believe that black lives matter. I will not be kneeling.

DGRossetti · 18/06/2020 13:54

It is surprising though that Dominic Raab had no idea what its meaning was.

This is a man who had no idea that Dover and Calais were so close. I think I would be more surprised at what he does know than doesn't. He certainly knows where Boris Johnsons arsehole is.

GetOffYourHighHorse · 18/06/2020 13:55

'As Raab said, taking the knee felt like a symbol of subjugation and subordination, rather than one of liberation and emancipation.'

Yes and like clapping for the NHS it's taking on a shame status. If people want to 'take the knee' fine but it's the expectation that everyone should or else they're racist. Black lives matter but the BLM political movement is not just about racism or equality. #Defundingpolice is on their site, why?

Why aren't they called BAME Life Matters if it's about ending racism?

chomalungma · 18/06/2020 13:56

I will not be kneeling

This is not about people taking a knee.
This is about the Foreign Secretary not knowing the significance of taking a knee.

I am surprised he does not know why people are doing it.

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contrmary · 18/06/2020 13:57

Taking a knee, one leg or two, is an act of submission. Most people are aware of the NFL protests and that it is now a black power symbol, but that doesn't eradicate it as symbol of subservience too.

chomalungma · 18/06/2020 13:58

If people want to 'take the knee' fine but it's the expectation that everyone should or else they're racis

Again - this is about the Foreign Secretary not knowing why people are taking the knee at the moment.

I guess you know why people are taking the knee - and who started it?

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chomalungma · 18/06/2020 14:00

Most people are aware of the NFL protests and that it is now a black power symbol, but that doesn't eradicate it as symbol of subservience too

Except the Foreign Secretary.

"After hours of careful consideration, and even a visit from Nate Boyer, a retired Green Beret and former NFL player, we came to the conclusion that we should kneel, rather than sit, ... during the anthem, as a peaceful protest," said Reid. "We chose to kneel because it's a respectful gesture. I remember thinking our posture was like a flag flown at half-mast to mark a tragedy"

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contrmary · 18/06/2020 14:02

This is about the Foreign Secretary not knowing why people are taking the knee at the moment.

Nothing in that clip suggests to me that he's not aware of the NFL thing. The point he's making is where did the whole "take a knee as an act of protest" thing come from? Why did the NFL player take a knee as opposed to another gesture? Has taking a knee got a deeper historical background, does it have a older meaning in black culture that Raab isn't aware of?

chomalungma · 18/06/2020 14:04

Nothing in that clip suggests to me that he's not aware of the NFL thing

Considering he was talking about the Game of Thrones, it suggests strongly that he doesn't know.

It stems from not wanting to stand for the US anthem but not wanting to sit down for it. So a respectful gesture whilst making a point about attitudes towards black people.

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Alanna1 · 18/06/2020 14:06

I think symbolic gestures are important, and they can change and develop. The game of thrones reference was naff, but I don’t think Rabb is wrong to reference the history of kneeling as subservience, but the gesture today in this context is different from what it was (& the GoT way in which it reflects servitude).

Kapernick’s knee was - at least to me - powerful symbolically to me because I felt he was trying to find a way to demonstrate the injustice he rightly felt in a way that also respected the American flag. Kneeling is a time-honoured gesture of respect (and indeed also subservience). He was shamefully treated over it.

Maybe Kapernick also meant it also to reflect the abusive way in which policeman subjugated black men - I don’t know - but the contrast between him kneeling in rightful protest then, and the US cop’s horrific kneeling which killed George Floyd now in my mind further transforms what that gesture is and what it stands for as a symbol of public protest currently.

But I agree with others too that as a symbol, because of mixed cultural history and context (one kneels before God to pray/take communion, one may kneel before the Queen, etc), and because kneeling is subservient - if you were kneeling before a monarch in the middle ages they could swipe your head off rather than knighting you! - that the gesture may be less powerful in the future than a closed fist, for example.

But right now the gesture is powerful and important to black communities, and that matters; and white people kneeling (indeed everyone kneeling!) helps visually demonstrate to black communities a statement that they do matter - partly because of the subservience, actually. I’d kneel now, for all I dislike the gesture in its historical context - because the meaning of the gesture matters more than that history right now.

Redolent · 18/06/2020 14:08

He’s as thick as mince and should have realised that his speculations would be rightly mocked.

hanahsaunt · 18/06/2020 14:10

When everyone stands to sing as a gesture of respect for an anthem, to remain seated is visually significant. When one is already standing (without the option of sitting) a visually significant gesture has to be something else, hence taking the knee (not kneeling). Wilful ignorance is not a defence.

Glowcat · 18/06/2020 14:12

He’s as thick as mince

That’s definitely how he comes across

Tlollj · 18/06/2020 14:12

I don’t blame him. I wouldn’t knell to anyone and what’s more I don’t think our foreign secretary should either.
I’d curtsy to the Queen.

Glowcat · 18/06/2020 14:14

I wouldn’t knell to anyone

No man is an Island, intire of it selfe

chomalungma · 18/06/2020 14:14

wouldn’t knell to anyone and what’s more I don’t think our foreign secretary should eithe

Do you think he should be aware of the significance of why people are kneeling now?

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Saucery · 18/06/2020 14:14

It’s bend the knee in GoT anyway.
So he’s got nothing right in this.

sleepyhead · 18/06/2020 14:15

I always thought the whole point of Colin Kaepernick's stance was that he refused to stand for the National Anthem, which in a country such as the US which sets such great store by emblems like the Anthem and flag, was a brave and meaningful action.

I didn't think that the knee was the point. It wasn't that he kneeled, it was that he did not stand.

So, while it's not for me to say what meaning it carries for black people now, I'm not sure what people taking photos of themselves kneeling acomplishes.

I guess I can see the point of sportsmen in other countries emulating his action in solidarity - although they're not putting themselves at risk in the way he did. He got horrific abuse for it.

chomalungma · 18/06/2020 14:15

I don’t blame him

You don't blame him for not being aware of an act that is becoming more popular and possibly being interested in the reason for it.

It's literally a 2 minute Google.

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TheRealMcKenna · 18/06/2020 14:17

It's literally a 2 minute Google.

He was live on air. “I don’t know the meaning. Please hold on while I Google it”.

chomalungma · 18/06/2020 14:18

He was live on air. “I don’t know the meaning. Please hold on while I Google it

It's something as Foreign Secretary he should really have been aware of before this.

Unless he wasn't interested.

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slartibarti · 18/06/2020 14:19

I know what taking a knee means to BLM.
But if I did it, it would feel like an act of subservience because the original meaning resonates with me more than the new one.