to think the Foreign Secretary / Deputy Prime Minister should know a little bit of the history about Take a knee

[chomalungma]

twitter.com/matthewchampion/status/1273534016570957824

No - it's not from Game of Thrones. Even though he said he didn't know where it came from, maybe it was Game of Thrones.

I know that Colin Kaepernick took a knee during NFL games and this led to massive repercussions with Trump getting involved.

I know now that there is more of a history with Martin Luther King - but it's the recent history I am more aware of.

I do know that it's not Game of Thrones though.

But this is the same guy who didn't know the importance of the Dover - Calais ferry crossing.

To me, I couldnt understand the hatred against th uk police in the riots in London. It's the American police that have a record for killing people. You cant tar them all with the same brush, the world over, especially when in the UK weve done so much over the years to reduce racism. We just dont have police murders in this country. Think the last one was Mark Duggan, and he was holding an imitation fire arm. Before that, I dont even think weve had any police murders.

Yes I heard about the defund the police bit...and didnt quite understand it.

My understanding is what is means is to reduce funding to the police and redirect it to services in poor areas. Many US police forces (even those in tiny, peaceful rural towns) have enormous funding for military equipment like armoured personnel carriers. It's coupled with training to police by consent and to build trust, rather than pulling a gun on everyone they want to question.

This approach has been proven to work and is really a move towards how we police in the UK.

That said, I agree that some of the political positions being put forward by those associating themselves with the BLM movement are silly and are not helping the argument.

@TabbyMumz

Yes I heard about the defund the police bit...and didnt quite understand it. so if we dont have a police force, how do we keep law and order and keep us all safe? Oh dear, I suspect they are doing a lot to cause people not to support blm, and will not help the cause gainst racism at all. If only half of those joining the protests knew all this!!!

Apparently they want social workers or a sort of community group to maintain order. I think Minnesota has just voted to remove it's police force and I think police in Atlanta all went off sick so maybe some places in the US are about to find out what it's like to have no police

My understanding is what is means is to reduce funding to the police and redirect it to services in poor areas.

If you read their manifesto it says that they want to replace the police, not just to change the way it's funded. I believe Minnesota has voted to disband the police force on the back of this.

Regardless, the UK police force aren't funded in the same way as in the US so how is it relevant here, yet protesters were demanding this in London.

People are demanding that we all show support for BLM but they don't appear to realise that BLM is a political organisation that many people would be fundamentally opposed to. It doesn't make you racist to say you won't support a far left activism movement.

The UK has a disproportionately high number of deaths of black people in custody you might want to read this TabbyMumz by Nazir Afzal a former chief prosecutor
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/11/black-deaths-in-police-custody-the-tip-of-an-iceberg-of-racist-treatment

I have friends who are police officers (one in the Met) they support peoples' right to take the knee as a sign of peaceful protest.

Hearhooves People are demanding that we all show support for BLM

Who is demanding this? Where?

I certainly think they should do some research before being so flippant about such an important issue.

I think Raab knows exactly what the symbol represents both to the BLM movement and in a wider context and carefully crafted the least damaging reply.

OP - before patronising posters further that they don’t have the sense to google the meaning of the gesture for BLM, might I suggest a bit of googling for you so that YOU fully understand the connotations of the gesture. You could start by looking up genuflection.

"The UK has a disproportionately high number of deaths of black people in custody you might want to read this TabbyMumz by Nazir Afzal a former chief prosecutor"
That article seems to indicate very low numbers of deaths in custody in the UK, first one 1998, next one 2006. So quite rare . And only 8% involving BAME people. So the majority oc deaths were white people. And I know how it works, in that only 3 percent bame in the country, but still, the majority of deaths have been white, and incredibly small numbers. Nowhere near on a par with what's happening in the US where weve heard of 2 deaths by police in 2 weeks.

@Mumratheevergiving

Hearhooves People are demanding that we all show support for BLM

Who is demanding this? Where?

At the protests, on SM. People are being pressured into saying that they support BLM or to take a knee, and if they don't then they are accused of being racist. You only have to look at scenes in the US to see crowds of protesters yelling at individual police officers and demanding that they kneel. Some refuse and some do it willingly but there are some who clearly don't want to do it but feel.pressured into it. The same with some of the British police.

That's not on. If people want to do it then they absolutely should, as is their right, but this attempt to force people into saying or doing something that they don't want to do is not on.

It's very unfortunate that the movement to campaign for anti racism also bears the same name as a political organisation because the two are now synonymous in many people's minds. I support anti racism but I disagree with much of what the BLM organisation is campaigning for.

Am I the only one who is following what’s going on in CHAZ/CHOP?

Forcing someone to kneel is obviously subjugation. But to choose to kneel as a sign of respect for something you believe is very important is the opposite of subjugation. It is liberation.

TabbyMumz how anyone can read that article and come away thinking that all is well in the UK criminal justice system is beyond my comprehension.

It’s akin to defending the death rate for Covid19 in the UK by pointing out countries with worse rates (eg US suitable example again). Just because some places are worse than the UK doesn’t mean there isn’t a problem here.

I think Raab knows exactly what the symbol represents both to the BLM movement and in a wider context and carefully crafted the least damaging reply.

I agree.

It was Nate Boyer, a white former NFL player and army veteran, who advised Kaepernick to take a knee instead of sitting down.

So the gesture was not inspired by Martin Luther King.

"Colin Kaepernick took a knee during the US national anthem before a game on 1 September 2016."

The photograph of MLK kneeling in prayer was publicised a year later - tweeted by his daughter on 23 September 2017.

@TheRealMcKenna

Am I the only one who is following what’s going on in CHAZ/CHOP?

It's very concerning what's going on over there right now. Things seem to be spiralling out of control and you can't help but fear for the ordinary people who are just going to get caught up in it, particularly if police are disbanded in large numbers and many others decide that now is the time to exercise their 2nd amendment rights.

jasjas1973 posted:

"Anyone see the news article on a sheriff in Minnesota who went armoured up to deal with protestors but then removed his helmet etc engaged with them and when asked to "Walk with us" thats exactly what he did.
Avoided violence and engaged the community."

Yes, I did, and I thought it was remarkable. A clever and kind tactic to diffuse the situation, I think he earned a lot of respect that day. Back on topic, I think that taking a knee has a lot more significance in the USA, due to the specific event when it began a few years ago. Although I don't like the gesture, I can see that most people who take the knee are just showing solidarity with disadvantaged BAME people, and at least it's a peaceful gesture. I don't think Raab should be criticised for not wanting to take a knee, but I agree that the flippant reference to Game of Thrones was ill judged.

Mumrathevergiving....well you certainly cant put the uK up there with American police deaths can you. Like I say, 2 in America in the last 2 weeks, so really really regular occurrence, as opposed to the UK, what was it, one in 1998, then next one 2007, not one since? Quite a big difference there.

Not quite sure where all the bollocks about UK police deaths is coming from. But here's one that happened last month ...

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/12/family-of-black-man-who-died-in-police-custody-in-devon-call-for-answers-simeon-francis

2011:

Kingsley Burrell, 29, died from cardiac arrest in March 2011, four days after being detained by police.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-41482367

There have been 1,741 deaths in police custody or otherwise following contact with the police since 1990

www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/crime/how-many-black-people-have-died-police-custody-uk-sheku-bayoh-sean-rigg-mark-duggan-and-other-cases-explained-2876226

"There have been 1,741 deaths in police custody or otherwise following contact with the police since 1990"
Ok, so in 30 years, 1741. That's about 57 a year? And of those 57, only 8 percent were bame? So about 3 to 4 bame people a year die in police custody as opposed to 50 white people. Dont forget there is a difference in deaths by police brutality which is what we see a lot of in America, ie shooting, aggressive holding procedures etc and police custody, which could mean they took I'll in a cell for a variety of reasons.

Ok, so in 30 years, 1741. That's about 57 a year? And of those 57, only 8 percent were bame? So about 3 to 4 bame people a year die in police custody as opposed to 50 white people.

I'm relieved that the UK has an acceptable number of deaths in custody regardless of the deceaseds preferences in pigmentation. Phew. For a moment I thought something might actually have to be done.*

(Still doesn't change the fact that someone was spouting shite though.)

*Irony if not outright sarcasm.

"Take a knee" sounds like an authoritarian command to me and I view kneeling as a symbol of subservience and fealty not empowerment. To me all this kneeling is going backwards and not a sign of equality at all. Fine if other people want to kneel but kneeling isn't part of my culture.

"'m relieved that the UK has an acceptable number of deaths in custody regardless of the deceaseds preferences in pigmentation. Phew. For a moment I thought something might actually have to be done.*"
I dont think any number of deaths is acceptable, just that you just cannot put the uK in the same category as the police brutality if the US. The numbers of deaths from police brutality in the UK as opposed to police custody will be minuscule I'm sure.

The USA is a very different place to the UK.
When I first heard the term defund the police I thought What?, how is this a sane idea.
Further reading and listening showed that the most frequent meaning of this would actually be transfer funding to emergency healthcare and social service so that they can be first responders where appropriate.
Which is much less snappy but rather badly needed in the USA.
It is routine for police to be the only people attending a mental health emergency for example.
Police do not have the training or skills to be mental health social workers. If they had wanted this job they would be doing it.
The way police are funded this call makes sense in the USA, this isn't an identical situation in the UK. (Although more funding for mental health is also desperately needed in the UK.)
There is also the issue of healthcare being privatized in the USA which isn't an issue in the UK.

The USA is a very different place to the UK.

So why is there this relentless drive to look to the US way of doing things ?

Because the wealthy have a higher standard living is my guess DG.
Unless you fit into that bracket I wouldn't recommend it.