to think the Foreign Secretary / Deputy Prime Minister should know a little bit of the history about Take a knee

[chomalungma]

twitter.com/matthewchampion/status/1273534016570957824

No - it's not from Game of Thrones. Even though he said he didn't know where it came from, maybe it was Game of Thrones.

I know that Colin Kaepernick took a knee during NFL games and this led to massive repercussions with Trump getting involved.

I know now that there is more of a history with Martin Luther King - but it's the recent history I am more aware of.

I do know that it's not Game of Thrones though.

But this is the same guy who didn't know the importance of the Dover - Calais ferry crossing.

It is an major political issue so will obviously have the complexity than any such issue has.

The history of the issue, the cultural background of the protest in the country of origin, the different cultural history of the UK, the political stance of the most noticeable political group focused on the issue (blm) and the political agendas of the politicians in all of the different countries addressing this issue at present.

It not helpful to pretend there are no complexities around any significant political issue, there always are.

@TheRealMcKenna I agree with you. If you're coerced into doing it for fear of a crowd reaction whether that be in RL or on line then you're submitting and it's for the satisfaction of others and being viewed as subservient. Even you OP are demanding explanations as to people's thought processes behind not doing it, making them explain why their view of it differs to yours. It's not natural to get on your knees in front of people unless you're afraid not to. I believe the majority of the police did it only as a form of crowd control, I hope so anyway.

@chomalungma

got the impression that Raab was taking about his associations with kneeling as opposed to the history of it - an association that, like it or not, many people share

In that case, he has shown a complete lack of awareness as if he thinks that people are kneeling at the moment in submission (because he associated kneeling with that from Game of Thrones), then that would be a very strange thing for people to do.

If someone had asked him why he thinks people are kneeling and he said "well, it's to do with submission" and then someone asked him "but who would they be submitting to" - I would love to have heard his answer.

It's not just GoT though is it, that is just a pop culture reference.

Kneeling has always symbolised submission to whoever or whatever you're kneeling too, which is why it makes no bloody sense at all in relation to BLM. It's an awful gesture; the black power salute was much better.

I don't know how many of the more radical BLM activists know this, but they're giving the government exactly the culture war it wants. And the government will win, because most British people do not think Britain is a racist society and they feel pretty insulted by the implication.

There is huge support in the UK for things like ending racist violence. Most people were pretty relaxed about the Colson statue being pulled down and there's a chance here to get a proper conversation going about how to acknowledge Britain's role in the slave trade. Most people want the police to be fair in the way they deal with ethnic minority people. Most people were really struck by how many health workers who've died from COVID were BAME. Most people gasped in admiration at Patrick Hutchinson carrying that Millwall fan on his shoulder. There's a massive opportunity here to really change things and move the ball down the field. But the chance will be lost if the movement becomes fixated on telling the average white British person that they're racist scum from a racist country. It might feel cathartic but the strategy is terrible.

ven you OP are demanding explanations as to people's thought processes behind not doing it, making them explain why their view of it differs to your

I wouldn't say 'demanding' an explanation. If someone has said that they wouldn't kneel, then I have said "why not". That's not demanding - just a genuine question.

@chomalungma

Zero meaningful impact, just encourages virtue signaler

I don't know - it's certainly promoted conversations, hasn't it...

I guess. Depends what you think about the person doing it? Is it 'Wow, they really care about an important issue' or 'Look at that dickhead jumping on the bandwagon when they actually couldn't give a shit.'

I only kneel before Zod.

@Bewareoftheblob I think that in a USA context kneeling wasn't a bad approach.
It was an effort to highlight dissatisfaction with the state while still being respectful to the flag/anthem, which is highly valued in the USA.
It showed respect through kneeling because kneeling was subservient to the flag while going against standard cultural response of standing extra straight and tall.
It was an effort to remain patriotic while still politically challenging.

Who do you think it is submitting to?

So if you took a knee now with a lot of other people, who do you think you would be 'being subservient to'?

I suspect the question you keep asking is loaded though...

Ultimately kneeling failed because it was viewed as non patriotic but I can see the effort that was put in to try and keep a wider audience engaged.

If it were tradition to kneel for the American anthem then Colin Kaepernick would have stood. His choice to kneel made a really powerful statement. Personally, given the manner of George Floyd's death, I found it particularly in bad taste and inappropriate watching police officers 'take the knee'.

I suspect the question you keep asking is loaded though

Not really.

If someone thinks that taking a knee is an act of submission and they see a group of people taking a knee, then they must be thinking it is an act of submission - so submitting to who?

(unless it's got nothing to do with an act of submission and it means something completely different)

@midwestsummer

It showed respect through kneeling because kneeling was subservient to the flag while going against standard cultural response of standing extra straight and tall.

I get that - possible another example of the differences between the two countries - and yet at the 1968 Olympics (another sporting context) the salute worked. Silent, head bowed for the respect element, but powerful - a clear protest.

I do think we have issues in separating the two countries at the moment.

I would like to do an analysis on Twitter posts.

I am prepared to bet a tenner that there is a direct correlation between those who are most ‘offended’ by Raab’s comments are those who could not understand why anyone was offended when Corbyn refused to sing the National Anthem during the Battle of Britain service.

am prepared to bet a tenner that there is a direct correlation between those who are most ‘offended’ by Raab’s comments are those who could not understand why anyone was offended when Corbyn refused to sing the National Anthem during the Battle of Britain service

I am not offended, I assumed he would know the context.

I do think we have issues in separating the two countries at the moment.

We really do. It isn't helpful to run the two together.

Kneeling is a respectful acknowledgment of the flag/anthem and concurrently a protest against the police violence meted out to the black community with a focus on black men.

I wouldn't kneel because it doesn't fit my cultural understanding of kneeling, I'm not kneeling for any flag/anthem.
I have no objection to others making different choices.

Who do you think they think they're submitting to? What do you think they find problematic about it?

"Again - this is NOT about him taking the knee.
It's about whether the Foreign Secretary should know the significance of it - and it's got NOTHING to do with being subservient - which is what he was talking about."
Why should the fact that he is Foreign Secretary have anything to do with him knowing the significance? Would you say the same about the Welsh Secretary or the Secretary for Environment, food and rural affairs? We can't expect political ministers to know everything about everything.

From game of thrones, it's 'bend the knee'!

DR is like everyone else. He can decide what he wants to do. He would probably look like a dick, so I don't blame him.

I hate this shaming people into doing something they're not comfortable with. It's a nasty blackmailing device used to manipulate people.

Did Raab genuinely not know what it stood for, or was he just saying how it looks to him?

I know what it stands for, but I wouldn't do it. It looks awful. That photo upthread of two police officers kneeling in front of an angry crowd was cringeworthy.

Why should the fact that he is Foreign Secretary have anything to do with him knowing the significance

I think that the Foreign Secretary / defacto Deputy PM should know about the reason people are kneeling at the moment.

It's the phrasing that sounds Game of Thronesish - rather than saying "kneeling down" or "kneeling in respect". It might sound right in a slangy American way, but it can sound odd and even jargon-like when you transfer it to other places.

I always thought of it as kind of a gesture like prayer, but as a political gesture it made more sense when others were standing for the anthem. As it is now, it makes me think of a kind of woke secular version of a cheap grace type of Christianity - where you just say you are saved and that's all you have to do.

I thought initially it was in direct reference to the way George Floyd died.
I don't now see it as a powerful gesture, the black power salute is much more powerful.
I hate the fact it's been hijacked by idiot virtue signalling people and will now be like the NHS clap, where people are shamed.

I won't kneel to the queen either. Respect and kneeling to someone are two very different things.

As for starting conversations, there are a lot of them at the moment. But about whether people should kneel, whether privilege exists, what counts as racism. Guess what though - these things do not create political action.

And there are more and more people I see who are basically of good will who are getting turned off of what passes for political anti-racism.

Here are good questions for political action - what is the one thing that could be done in the US to materially improve the lives of black people? I am going to say - universal health care and low cost post-secondary education. What is the one thing that could improve the way policing works? That's actually much more complicated but I am going to suggest much better training with an emphasis on deescalation would be a start.

Those are real political goals and one that you could easily create significant solidarity around.