To think it's ironic about Niqab and face coverings

[IsntItIronicDontYouThink]

Just thought about this and how ironically, face coverings have become mandatory on public transports and it makes me think of Muslim women (Niqab wearing women specifically) who've had a hard time because of their face coverings to now find that everyone has to cover their faces (for different reasons yes but still ironic, isn't it?)

Googled to see if anyone else mentions this. Here's a piece I found about it (There's more but just picked this one).

www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2020/06/12/face-mask-compulsory-muslim-women-12838585/amp/

Yes I work and run a successful business from my home as a freelancer and have done for years. I have lots of friends and there are constant family gatherings, friend gatherings every week. I go to a women only gym 4 times a week, take my kids to play, travel, eat out - get takeaways - go on dates with my husband - just like the rest of you.

Girls don't need to cover until the age of puberty and then generally wear the hijab until they are old enough to decide if they want to wear the niqab or not (usually around 18 upwards). I started wearing the niqab at 21 and have worn it ever since, am 31 now.

I am also totally against anyone being forced to wear anything and it actually goes against the religion to do so.

As far as I was aware mulims don,t need to cover their hare at all, they may choose to do so and that's fine. (covering hair doesn't,t effect communication.) But I have worked with tots in head scarfs and yes it def defected them, so what does one do, remove the head scarf and let the child join the activity,s (but may be seen as disrepecting a parental choice.) Or stop the child joining in?

Oh really? You would say that, wouldn't you? Once something hits a nerve, it's difficult to see straight and past your bias and defence.

Hopefully you also stop niqab-shaming 🙄

I also realise you know me very well even more than I know myself, so youobviouslyknow what I've done and think.

The two posts above were to BendylikeBeckham by the way, who's desperately looking for an excuse to be offended while offending others.🙄

Have no more words for you because I don't wish to say the wrong ones!

OP, I think you have been the defensive one on this thread!

Please tell me where I have niqab-shamed.

I believe in equality, equal rights, and I stand up for women everywhere who don't have those, even if they think they have (see my comments on social, familial, societal, cultural conditioning). #WomensLivesMatter

I only know what you've told us, OP. And you were scathing in your moral judgieness. I wasn't offended. I was annoyed and making a point in responding to your words. Many have taken issue with your OP and subsequent comments because you don't seem to get the concept of irony and also talk intelligibly in places.

Whom have I offended and how?

To the PP discussing children's attire, I see young girls from around 5 in different parts of London wearing head coverings or have other restrictive clothing or conduct mandated by their communities (not just Muslim) compared to boys. Surely the common reasoning behind it (if you see any sensible rationale in it anyway), if applied to prepubescents, therefore involves the sexualisation of children. That is not right. Why should an innocent little girl be 'modest', cover 'her beauty' from the gaze of men, etc etc.

I would posit that the conditioning starts this young even if those girls aren't forced to wear/do it because they see their female relatives modelling this 'norm'. Their role models wear certain items, accept unequal rights, live with being subjugated in society, so they grow up with the expectation that they will too, and be subservient in marriage, and so it goes on.

Many religions and cultures impose unequal and disadvantageous practices upon women, and they vary around the world according to interpretation, but mostly local cultural practices. The one thing that unites all women from all cultures, places, beliefs, etc is that we all live in a largely misogynistic patriarchy, it just varies in degrees, with some more extreme than others.

When I was at university there were women on my course from a number of Middle Eastern countries including Iran and Saudi Arabia. They did not wear any hair or face coverings at all while here.

They told me that it was more of a cultural thing, and that some interpretations of the Quar’anic passages about “drawing veils” over the body are that one should dress modestly. Of course different cultures interpret “modesty” in different ways.

Interestingly, Christianity puts the responsibility on the man not to view a woman with lust in his eyes, rather than on the woman to cover herself for being attractive to men.... perhaps that’s a whole new thread!

@BendyLikeBeckham

Oh really? You would say that, wouldn't you? Once something hits a nerve, it's difficult to see straight and past your bias and defence.

Hopefully you also stop niqab-shaming 🙄

I also realise you know me very well even more than I know myself, so youobviouslyknow what I've done and think.

The two posts above were to BendylikeBeckham by the way, who's desperately looking for an excuse to be offended while offending others.🙄

Have no more words for you because I don't wish to say the wrong ones!

OP, I think you have been the defensive one on this thread!

Please tell me where I have niqab-shamed.

I believe in equality, equal rights, and I stand up for women everywhere who don't have those, even if they think they have (see my comments on social, familial, societal, cultural conditioning). #WomensLivesMatter

I only know what you've told us, OP. And you were scathing in your moral judgieness. I wasn't offended. I was annoyed and making a point in responding to your words. Many have taken issue with your OP and subsequent comments because you don't seem to get the concept of irony and also talk intelligibly in places.

Whom have I offended and how?

Oh hush! No one has taken anything away from my subsequent comments. You seem to rock up here pages after I wrote what I wrote that no one said anything about (or rather everyone was responding as normal), looking for something to latch on to. Well you succeeded. Froth on!

What has your claim of me not knowing what irony is got to do with you taking a part of what I wrote and running away with it screaming buzzwords like 'slut shaming', hoping it would stick and you'll get an army for your silly accusations. I see you and your intent and sorry that won't work on me. You can shout it from now till tomorrow, you're making a fool of yourself.

You look around asking where you've done such and such and with the same breath, accuse me of wanting women vilified because of their clothing choice when I've done no such thing and you claim that everybody else sees that when only you have seen what isn't here but I know you're eagerly hoping for support which is why you include others in your idiocy.

I said I'll be ignoring you from now because I can't stand buzzword carriers like you hoping for offence where there's none and looking around for support. Responding to you is giving you the attention you seek.

Others have written something similar to that post you half-quoted to fit your narrative but ofcourse someone like you looking for something to froth over can pick a paragraph and 'towncry' over it, hoping to garner attention. Bet I fed you with that paragraph, I'm sure you'll take it to your grave with the way you've latched on as if so many things haven't been written here already.

I'm not the only one who sees my OP as ironic, some people here do and have said so, including the authors of the links I posted and others I didn't post. So I'll happily stay on the 'we think it's ironic but some don't think so. Let's agree to disagree' hill while you go about seeking excuses to write inflammatory posts and use buzzwords gotten off the internet.

How's this for scathing? Hope I make sense now? It's sad you still can respond to me with all my unintelligible nonsense. How kind of you to do but who's the bigger fool there?

Hope someone pays you some attention soon before you combust. Goodbye, you're not worth my time, I've wasted enough of it on you and I'm mad for doing that.

Interestingly, Christianity puts the responsibility on the man not to view a woman with lust in his eyes, rather than on the woman to cover herself for being attractive to men
The Bible does mention head coverings however
www.openbible.info/topics/head_scarf

Interestingly, Christianity puts the responsibility on the man not to view a woman with lust in his eyes, rather than on the woman to cover herself for being attractive to men.... perhaps that’s a whole new thread!

Islam also teaches men and women to lower their gaze I.e. don’t stare.

I don’t understand why people have to obey religious rulings so thoroughly. I was brought up catholic, as a child and early adulthood I followed and obeyed but as I got older I refused to believe everything that was taught me. I still believe in God but I don’t follow my religion like a sheep. Every religion is man made, I refuse to be a sheep, and I’m not arrogant enough to think my religion is the true one. None are. However I have a faith and strong belief in God.

I live in a democratic country that doesn't follow Islamic law, but most people are muslim (99%). I don't know if my experiences here apply to women in the whole country or in my particular area. The more I live here, the more I see that makes me uncomfortable. Women are definitly second class citizens, and their status is really pitiful. They are brought up to find a good husband and be a good daughter. They often can't get permission from their fathers to go to university or from their husbands to go to work. I know many women who I know don't want to wear the hijab but must. They have no option of taking it off. Just know that the whole rhethoric of "we wear it because we choose to" is a lie. Many girls are manipulated and shamed into wearing it. There isn't necessarily any violence involved. Every decision the women makes is subject to scrutiny. I don't want to go on and on. I feel ashamed of being a muslim. I would revert back to beingna christian but then I would be left with no family or friends so too bad.

OP, what utter drivel you spout. I can't even figure out what point you are trying to make. If anyone is frothing, it isn't me.

I picked up on a point you made earlier in the thread and challenged you on it, not to 'garner support', but to, you know, debate a topic on an online discussion forum, which is why we are all here.

I'm glad your lengthy diatribe is the last one to me. I really can't be bothered with trying to understand you any more. Others have contributed much more interesting and intelligent comments to this discussion, from all viewpoints. I'm grateful for the insight some have given.

Interestingly, Christianity puts the responsibility on the man not to view a woman with lust in his eyes, rather than on the woman to cover herself for being attractive to men....

Islam also teaches men and women to lower their gaze I.e. don’t stare

So Is Islam saying it’s impossible to control lust when looking at a person of the opposite sex? Lower your gaze, don’t look, then you won’t have lustful feelings?

I am more than capable of looking a person in the face, having a conversation, without thinking about having sex with them. Or if they are extraordinarily attractive, i don’t feel the need to act on my thoughts and try and have sex with them.

Staring at the floor while trying to have a conversation so I don’t look at someones beauty and become overwhelmed with lust seems a little... patronising? Surely people have better self control?

They must be such lovely dates @Muslimah2020 you staring across the table at your husband and him staring across at a bunch of fabric with his wife underneath it.

It’s just so convenient to me that coverings are only to be worn by women not men. So men are completely uninhibited in their daily lives whereas woman must live the restricted life you do.

Tell me this - if wearing the niqab is so great then why do you take it off at home? Would it be because it’s... uncomfortable!

Finally you keep saying it’s your choice to wear it. So if you change your choice tomorrow and decide you’re going to wear nothing not even a hijab - would you husband say ok dear that sounds good or would he have a problem with it? Can you answer that honestly? What about your Iman? If it’s your choice only then surely they should also be fine with you changing your mind?

I suspect you would find it’s a choice that has been forced on you by men.

Moveslikejagger1

Your post has absolutely hit the nail on the head, particularly about not wearing hijab at home.
As I have said before, my wife was born in Iran and left there about thirty five years ago. When we visit Iran, she (and all other women, even tourists) HAS to wear a headscarf and long clothing in public, there is no choice. In the house she (and her female relatives) dress just as we would in the West. None of the Iranians we know, wear any kind of hijab when visiting countries outside Iran.
If my wife goes to the Iranian consulate in London, she has to wear a headscarf in the building.
I think the rules in Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states are even stricter.

I think the rules in Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states are even stricter

They aren’t actually stricter, but family pressure is probably stronger (so less need for legal pressure iyswim).

Sometimes I cannot believe how suffocating it is for women to be controlled by their male relatives, even into adulthood. Getting permission to work, to travel (if you are under a certain age), getting permission to marry .... and only if the man is a Muslim.

Men, of course, face no such restrictions.

I think it's ironic that many women who say the niqab is a choice and women should be allowed to wear it without being harrassed (which I agree should be the case) often appear to think that women who wear skimpy clothes, tight jeans, short sleeved t-shirts, bikinis etc are being forced to do it by some kind of cultural pressure rather than actually wearing such clothes because they actively choose to, whether that be because they find them comfy, they want to feel sexy or they just like fashion and experimenting with different styles.

And I don't think there are any countries in the world that force women to wear less clothing, whereas there are quite a few where women are forced to cover up - Iran, Saudi Arabia for example, so it's not always a personal choice for all women.

Dear Moveslikejagger1

You are spot on! But the real issue is that despite freedom of expression here in the UK are now apparently insensitive/offensive/racist/evil anti Muslims just even thinking and saying the obvious!

We rightfully have equality and anti hate and discrimination crimes and uphold them relatively well. But what I truly sense is that there are UK urban ghettos and even inner city Christian Church of England and Roman Catholic state schools that are full of anyone one but including teachers and Islamic catering etc that have become like little India/Bangladesh/Somali etc as former locals have moved out! I see this as surreal and a form of dare I say it reverse discrimination racism ie indigenous British people treated disparagingly as if to say this is our place what are you doing here type of thing!

Yes this will bring on the hatters and the BLM brigade but I truly respect all peoples (don’t forget Reading and obviously continued ongoing periodic Islamic terror in the UK) but believe certain fundamental/extremists religions are simply different and wear a shield as they are segregated from society and importantly to me they are (female Muslims with hidden identities) forced to put a barrier between themselves and the world!

What I am saying is that this is a self enforced sexism and racism and religionism (if that’s a word).This is not an agenda so don’t go on auto defense and hate! It is just a viewpoint!

How do you women who are fully wrapped up feel on a beach next to regular folk (not topless beach) just a “normal” one? Do you have a dislike towards “non believers” including international modern empowered independent Muslims in bikinis? I have Muslim friends and when we swim or holiday at the beach we do just that be it Turkey or North Africa as can’t say they are not Islamic! The local wines and beers are not bad too!

Peace out and come on - let the I am racist crap begin....

Are people being thick? The point of the hijab is to cover your hair from unrelated males. There aren't likely to be unrelated males in your family home are there? Much like my DH only walks around in his underpants at home, not on the street.

These questions are beyond stupid.

And let's not hold up Iran as a barometer, it's one country out of dozens.

It is Ibelieve 9 muslim countries which have the death penalty for changing your religion from Islam not Christian or atheist countries. However in my view they are just a little behind us in the West and will catch up, just as in the 1800s the UK needed the Married Woman's Property Act so that married women could own their own property and in the 1900s we had to change the law to make it clear husbands could rape their wives. it is just a question of time. Saudi has come a long way in a very short time economically but its cultural practices and those of the Koran just need a bit of an update/reformation.

However I support the right of communities in the UK to be as backward, sexist or free and naked as they like as long as they allow people to leave and I include in that Hassidic girls with early marriage in the more insular bits of the Jewish community - there are similar difficulties in leaving any kind of strict insulated community and often those ones are the most sexist and give women the fewer rights. It is similar with the traveller girls too - we had a MN thread about one trying to leave with her 6 children recently.

These religions even if set up by a non sexist perhaps even female God so everyone is equal have just about all been ruined by men who continue to want to control women's sexuality and bodies.

"Are people being thick?"

I don't think so, simply pointing out that most Islamic country have rules which stop women from doing certain things. Why would mandatory covering of the hair be so important?
Why would a Muslim man (in Saudi Arabia or UAE) be allowed to have up to 4 wives, yet if a women tried the same thing, she would be executed.
Why did it take until June 2018, for the 2 aforementioned countries, to allow women to drive?
Saudi women still need permission from men to travel abroad.

And let's not hold up Iran as a barometer, it's one country out of dozens

Iran is just an example where it’s legally mandated. In the Gulf, it’s usually not mandated by law, but there is intense family pressure to wear hijab/niqab.

When you see prepubescent children wearing hijab, you know they would be forced to continue wearing it into adulthood. Again, worst I saw was those three little girls forced to wear black abayas and niqabs on the playground. Constantly tripping on their clothes and getting snagged on playground equipment. They will never have a normal childhood.

It’s very difficult when the oppression is a private, family-based thing. Legally you can’t do anything about it.

@andyoldlabour maybe go those countries and ask them! Muslim women in the UK are not responsible for educating you, let alone what happens in other countries. Ask your wife ffs.

And ask Turkey why they ban the hijab in public buildings. But I expect you don't give a shit about that!

And 'I have an Iranian wife' is a variation of 'I have a black friend who...'

I think this whole thread is essentially about how we western women see Muslims all covered up and actually feel some sort of empathy for them because we (free and unrestricted) can wear and do what we want protected by equality and discrimination laws and behaviours.

What we are seeing with little girls all wrapped up in the heat at the playground falling down because of their attire is that these little girls will never in the near future be free to do what they like, ie what they wear, who they want to be friends with, who they marry or as pointed out above whether they can even drive a car. This is technically historical or medieval culture just like the west centuries ago as others have rightly pointed out pre equality and discrimination laws.

Not all Muslims are the same of course (as with all faiths) but the point is - what we read here is a bunch of fully clad Muslims constantly defending themselves to justify that yes we are actually discriminated against by the men who control our faiths, laws and culture but we choose to follow and impose that on our daughters! Worst are those who say just like you we go on dates (with our husbands) but fully shielded as Boris described.

If your daughter studies in a mixed UK school would you allow her to play and say date someone who does not have such restrictions and freedom of thought and beliefs?

Are there any fundamental Muslim world leaders? Not modern ones! Can a women ever be in a corporate board room with men (even if say family members and other men) and not be segregated as throughout many Gulf states?

We are here not to poke and belittle you but here trying to see if you actually want to stop your own bubble of self segregation from general society. That to me this is simply reverse discrimination which you are seemingly happy with just as you have to obey your male family and society leaders.