To think it's ironic about Niqab and face coverings

[IsntItIronicDontYouThink]

Just thought about this and how ironically, face coverings have become mandatory on public transports and it makes me think of Muslim women (Niqab wearing women specifically) who've had a hard time because of their face coverings to now find that everyone has to cover their faces (for different reasons yes but still ironic, isn't it?)

Googled to see if anyone else mentions this. Here's a piece I found about it (There's more but just picked this one).

www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2020/06/12/face-mask-compulsory-muslim-women-12838585/amp/

[Oliversmumsarmy]

I don’t get the connection a face mask covers a part of the face. A niqab covers the head, ears and neck and only leaves the eyes on view.
And wearing a niqab still wouldn’t protect you the same as a proper mask

[SchrodingersImmigrant]

There is a world difference between face mask and niqab.

[otterturk]

Temporarily covering your face in public to protect your health is VERY different to covering your face for backwards notions of modesty.

[LittleMissRedHat]

Not wishing to get into a debate, but those posters who only see the wearing of the niqab and hijab as being subjugation or oppression of women should really do some research. Sadly your ignorance is showing. Many, (indeed most) women who wear them do so because they WANT to. Of course there are some who only do so because of outside pressure, but this is simply not the case for most. Your pity or outrage is for the most part misplaced.

[Jourdain11]

Hmmm, I'm not defending Boris Johnson, but I think "letterboxes" referred to the whole appearance, not just to the face coverings.

DH had two niqab-wearing parents of kids in his (Primary School) class this year. On one occasion, he gave the wrong child to the wrong parent at home time. He was pretty embarrassed!

[ChardonnaysPetDragon]

After having worn the bloody thing I feel even more sorry for the women who have the wear it. It’s so uncomfortable. Can’t imagine wearing this all my life, especially on a hop and stuffy day.

[IsntItIronicDontYouThink]

I'm sure that not everyone who dislikes the niqab has a well-formed position on Islamic culture and tradition

That's exactly why I thought this isn't about the reasons but about aesthetics.

[fascinated]

It’s fundamentally different.

Mask men’s and women’s faces to protect everyone‘s health = ok

Mask women’s face to protect her “virtue” = not ok

[pinkstripeycat]

LastTrainEast

Exactly! Well said

[MsSafina]

This thread will not last for long.

[IsntItIronicDontYouThink]

@WorriedAboutMom

As a Muslim woman, nope no 'man' told me to cover neither will I be killed if I don't 🙄. The only people who think they have a right to tell me how to dress are non Muslims (ironically). I don't wear niqab but my mum did (actually my dad tried to discourage her but she's very headstrong) and the amount of abuse she recieved from white men (it was always men) was disgusting. I probably cover the exact amount of hair a wooly hat would cover yet I'm oppressed. I guess you probably think that nuns have been forced to cover too oh wait, it's ok coz they're not Muslim. Yet another Muslim bashing thread on Mumsnet I have to hide 🙄 .

I agree with you. Please know this isn't meant to be a muslim bashing thread at all. Quite the opposite. If a post is offensive, please report so MNHQ can remove it.

[Flopjustwantscoffee]

With the Niqab specifically... either women are wearing them because they choose to (in which case they should have that freedom) or in a minority of cases because they are being forced by men (in which case preventing them from wearing it in public isnt going to lead to their libertion and the repressive men seeing the error of their ways. It will lead to them having less freedom to go out). WHilst I dont think women should be pressurised into covering up, I also find the anger against women who choose to do so (coming as it does predominently from men) equally distasteful.

And I agree - it is ironic. Mostly the way that a lot of arguements against them (you cant see peoples faces and this is terrible, cant understand people, cant tell if people are smiling, security risk etc etc) no longer seem to count at all. in fact you get shouted down if you raise it as an issue. Although... in America some of the religous far right peeps are actually arguing aginst the face mask on the grounds that it contravense some made up christin rule about showing your face. So at least they are alert to the possible accusations of irony but have veered in a wildly crazy direction with it...

[IsntItIronicDontYouThink]

@IntermittentParps

Women, wearing face masks were held up for ridicule, as looking like letter boxes, by Boris Johnson, and now his government has had to make them mandatory on public transport. I seems like a judgement on his arrogance and hubris to me

I agree. And the usual shite spouted by people who are anti-Muslim – sorry I mean anti-face coverings – 'it's scary/socially awkward not being able to see someone's face properly blah blah blah' seems to be not in evidence at the moment. Strange, huh?

Exactly.

[EmperorCovidula]

@WorriedAboutMom many women, both Muslim and non-muslim have been forced to cover their hair because of patriarchal views that sexualise women’s bodies. Relatively few women choose to dress this way freely. It’s great that no one is forcing you, although one wonders why anyone would strictly adhere to any form of dress without someone influencing them (for example I always, anyways cover my vulva/bottom when in public, while I don’t have a need or desire to show them I can equally acknowledge that I don’t make this decision freely, I do it as a result of the influence of the law and social pressure, if I wasn’t being coerced at all I would probably walk around stark naked occasionally in the same way that I cover my hair occasionally, when someone does something as a rule it’s safe to make the presumption that it’s not a free choice even if the illusion is there).

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

, but those posters who only see the wearing of the niqab and hijab as being subjugation or oppression of women should really do some research. Sadly your ignorance is showing. Many, (indeed most) women who wear them do so because they WANT to. I think that is an irreconcileable difference between many muslim women and many western women. For some it is utterly inconceivable that any woman would want to cover her hair and face / whole body (depending) without it being heavily influenced by patriarchal ideology.

Much the same argument is made by women like me who see make up in much the same light!

Neither side has the same starting point, so no debate will ever come to an agreement.

[IsntItIronicDontYouThink]

And wearing a niqab still wouldn’t protect you the same as a proper mask

A proper mask? The tiny piece of fabric attached to a string? The flimsy clothes people are also allowed to use as face covering?

[IsntItIronicDontYouThink]

@LittleMissRedHat

Not wishing to get into a debate, but those posters who only see the wearing of the niqab and hijab as being subjugation or oppression of women should really do some research. Sadly your ignorance is showing. Many, (indeed most) women who wear them do so because they WANT to. Of course there are some who only do so because of outside pressure, but this is simply not the case for most. Your pity or outrage is for the most part misplaced.

I agree.

[TeacupDrama]

but both cloth face masks, surgical face masks and the niqab all have the same effect on those with hearing problems

1. they can't hear you as well as mask muffles the sound so the speaker needs to speak louder
2. most people with long standing hearing problems lip read to a certain extent which is problematic with any face covering
3. for everyone it cuts down on the part of communication that is facial expression, this is important as weall know that text messages are easily misinterpreted and phonecalls can be do which is why important stuff is always done better face to face

clear visors make a big difference when someone needs less than surgical medical levels of protection but alos needs to communicate well ie shop assistants receptionsists etc etc

I am a retired dentist and so used to wear a mask much of the time, I always removed them to talk to patients as they hear better when you are facing them rather than computer screen and they can see your face it also looks friendlier

Face coverings for now in enclosed spaces are possibly helpful, longer term for at least 20% of the population ( 1 in 5 people have a hearing deficiency getting more common as you get older) they are much less than helpful and if people have to get closer to hear properly it kind of negates the purpose

[Flopjustwantscoffee]

Actually this, and the recent discussions of white privilege reminds me of when I went on holiday to nice a few years ago. I got awful heat rash on the first day and spent the next day on the beach pretty much completely covered up even in the sea. I had no problems at all. I later read in the news that a bit further down the coast on the same day, probably the same time, a muslim woman who was probably less covered than I was was actually forced to remove some of her clothes by the police. So obviously clothing worn by me (who doesnt "look" muslim) is not a problem, but similar clothing worn by someone who "does" is even though in practical terms theres no difference and neither affect anyone else.

[AllWashedOut]

I will not wear a muzzle and in part no doubt it is because I also object to other face coverings. Human beings communicate with facial expressions. I assess other people's honesty and true intentions through their facial expressions. When I can't do that I'm more than discomfited.

[Flopjustwantscoffee]

Teacup drama - I do agree both cause issues for hearing impaired and needs to be considered more than it is, particularly for healthcare and care home settings...

[WorraLiberty]

OP, you describe a mask as The tiny piece of fabric attached to a string

So how can your compare it to Niqab, which covers the face and the hair?

You've just completely contradicted yourself there. There's no irony at all in mouth and nose coverings during a pandemic.

[ThighThighofthigh]

I thought it was ironic too, but I may be using ironic wrongly.

My thoughts were, I wonder if niqab wearing women caught the virus less than other people?

Also I hate wearing a mask (I do though when necessary). I find it so discombobulating like it's affecting my other senses. I find it disturbing trying to speak to people when we are both wearing masks and I miss the visual cues that I wasn't aware I was picking up.

The experience just made me curious about life in a niqab.

[june2007]

Nuns don,t cover there face. The Niqab is not the same as a mask.

And tEacup dream you soo right about the mask and hearing/communication.

[viques]

If anything covering my face with a mask has made me realise how very oppressive a face covering, worn for whatever reason , can be, how hard for example it makes communication , especially if you are a bit deaf and subconsciously rely on expression and lip reading, how much more effort you have to put into speaking clearly, how bloody uncomfortable and hot a face covering is, how it reduces individuality and personality. It makes me think - and I am sorry if this offends niquab wearing Muslim women on here- that the real reason for a patriarchal society insisting on covering women is not for modesty or to prevent them rousing lust in men who should know better, but because wearing a face covering makes normal everyday life so energy sapping it reduces the chance of women expected to cover up ever being able to live as equals in the workplace or society .