@Pepperwort
Women can cover (and some do cover) outside of religion, would you feel more comfortable if a woman wore something similar to a Niqab but didn’t happen to be a Niqab and didn’t belong to any religion? Would you be more comfortable and/or less bothered/more accepting of it if a woman was covered from head to toe with something that wasn’t a religious garnering?
Now that's a good question, and it clarifies things for me. No I would not feel more comfortable or accepting of it if it was outside of a religious setting. Not in a country where a) it isn't normal b) it doesn't suit the weather, and c_ it doesn't suit daily activities. We got rid of ankle-length gowns over a century ago, because they are damned inconvenient. The colour doesn't help either, as that is synonymous with mourning here. I might assume that if I didn't know the cultural associations, but mourning carried on past a reasonable length of time isn't healthy. The associations with the male gaze I would still find uncomfortable, as it would imply poor treatment from men in the past and an expectation of poor treatment from men in the future. It would assume and express a victimhood that helps no one.
Regarding your other question, we do all have to live within our cultures in some ways and establish some kind of common communication, moral and ethical frameworks, ways of working together. They can be challenged on points, but there has to be some degree of consensus. Otherwise you don't have one culture. That's simply practicality and pragmatism, and in our culture we do not mix religion and civic life. We keep powers separate, plus religion has long been disproved in any sense of physical science. It's only kept as one tool of social conformity, and I dislike the way islam seems to be trying to assert it's laws and customs over ours.
Your answer has left me even more dumbfounded and with even more questions:
What is “normal” ? who defines “normal” ? You? The majority? The minority? The prime minister? Who sets the the scale for normal and what does that include? And why should this scale be upheld over another one? What is the norm to you might not be the norm to me.
If it’s the majority and they decide something “controversial“ like Homosexuality is anormal, should they have the power to overturn marriage equality? Should it be requested gay people go into hiding and only hold hands at home and/or in private? If not, if that wouldn’t be okay to ask that of gays despite plenty of people finding “anormal” would it be okay to ask this of women who cover themselves (irrelevant) of religion?
“it doesn’t suit the weather" , again who decides who wears what and under which circumstances?and what is acceptable and “authorized” clothing for the weather. According to you should women only be allowed wear summer clothes during summer and winter clothes during winter? It’s really hot right now where I am at but I am wearing long sleeves and pants, like I do through most of winter, because that’s what I felt like wearing today, should I change into shorter clothes that suits your standards of weather appropriateness?
And ban myself from wearing anything long during warm days? Should I be boycotted?
"It doesn’t suit daily activities", again, do you know the ins and out of everyone to know what suits or doesn’t suit their daily activities? The fact that you would struggle doing your daily activities wearing something specific doesn’t mean others do. But I guess again since you don’t think it suits, we should take your words for it and make it a fact.
"We got rid of Anke length gown a century ago because they are damn inconvenient" Hmm, no, it stopped being the norm but they still very much exist. I own both ankle length dresses and skirts and I love them, they absolutely don’t limit me (don’t worry I also own clothes above the knee, who also fail to limit me before you start sweating over my wardrobe). But I guess I should burn them because they are outdated by about 100 years.
"The color doesn’t help either, it’s associated with mourning here.” Okay so black is only to be worn at funerals in the UK, noted. I am going to go tell H&M and primary that they are promoting unhealthy mourning habits through selling black tops, pants and dresses and should stop IMMEDIATELY.
Me wrapping myself in a colorful scarf from head to toe would be promoting domestic violence and encouraging future domestic violence on my person to you as well, which is just brilliant.
You say this “we do all have to live within our cultures in some ways and establish some kind of common communication, moral and ethical frameworks”
I absolutely cannot believe that you accused me of sexualizing women and politicizing their bodies when it’s what your entire post is about.
According to you (and no those are not «normal» standards just your very own, fairly twisted, ones.)
Women should only be allowed to wear:
-Weather appropriate clothes
- Clothes YOU see as fitting for daily activities
-Clothes YOU deem as «normal» (whatever that means)
They should not though wear:
-Anything that cover them too much (based on what you would consider «too much») without it being perceived as an advertisement for domestic violence or their acceptance of potential future violence against them. (Fantastic victim blaming there slow clap)
- Anything black, unless they want to be seen as people who promote unhealthy mourning habits and aren’t culturally aware.
- Anything that doesn’t suit the weather. so in summer, no long-covering clothes, in winter nothing too short or showing too much skin.
Well fuck who need the patriarchy when we have you, eh?
Do you always judge women for what they wear and did you grow up that spoiled that you were taught your thoughts and opinions on other women clothing not only mattered but should be upheld and perceived as the norm for the UK?