To think it's ironic about Niqab and face coverings

[IsntItIronicDontYouThink]

Just thought about this and how ironically, face coverings have become mandatory on public transports and it makes me think of Muslim women (Niqab wearing women specifically) who've had a hard time because of their face coverings to now find that everyone has to cover their faces (for different reasons yes but still ironic, isn't it?)

Googled to see if anyone else mentions this. Here's a piece I found about it (There's more but just picked this one).

www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2020/06/12/face-mask-compulsory-muslim-women-12838585/amp/

It bothers me that "terror attacks" are seen as just an Islamic thing. There are white supremacist terrorists, Christian terrorists, political terrorists etc. Yet the issue of terrorism seems to be linked so strongly to one particular group, and I don't think it's reasonable. Whenever someone talks about their experiences as a Muslim, it doesn't take long before someone mentions terrorism - just like any discussion of Judaism almost immediately devolves into arguments about Israel.

Western folks have colonized countries and eradicated people, history, cultures and languages, it has forced people to give up on their heritage and abandon their land and families/people and customs to conform to a western lifestyle (were they would still be othered anyway) AGAINST their will FOR CENTURIES

How do you think Islam was spread and why so many formerly non-Islamic countries are now Islamic or majority Islamic? You could write exactly the same sentence replacing "Western folks" with "Islamic folk".

Which culture do you live in, that doesn’t mix religion and civic life? I can’t think of any. China maybe?

We had it. We had the option right here in Britain. Have you heard perhaps of the Renaissance? Or the Enlightenment? We have been moving away from religious authority for two or three centuries. We were finding new social contracts, based not on religion-enforced class, but on the ideals, as far as we could put them into practice given our numbers, of democracy and equality. It is the reduction in the power and authoritarianism of religion that drove Victorian liberalism, that helped decolonisation.

Then the baby boomers came along, with their corruption into neo-liberalism. The entire world started shifting back towards authoritarian outlooks. America turned its back on any form of socialism, to mark itself as an opponent of the communist Russians, and that's the direction we've been taking ever since. The terror of being thought communist drives politics now. Fundamentalist Islam appeared. Christianity has returned as a force opposed to a renewal of islamic evangelism here. Suddenly you have politicians here making a big deal of their religion, as in America you cannot be in politics without being Christian. Suddenly schools are enabled to brainwash their pupils with their religion through taking their funding.

I'm sorry if people think this thread is turning nasty - the only nastiness I have seen is from those defending Islam at all costs, claiming that we are all bigoted and in favour of male abuse towards women. I think you have simply come across someone who won't give you everything you want.

@ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia

I feel unease at hearing this as obviously not acceptable in any shape or form. Cowardly attacks on women as sport for uncultured yobs! But let’s not play the victim card so readily as look what happened in Reading

Are you seriously implying that what happed to Muslimah was justified because of what happened in Reading and that Muslimah is playing the ‘victim’ card?

I wish people like you bear a mark so I could avoid you in the street.

Oh really? You would say that, wouldn't you? Once something hits a nerve, it's difficult to see straight and past your bias and defence.

Hopefully you also stop niqab-shaming 🙄

Whatever!

I also realise you know me very well even more than I know myself, so you obviously know what I've done and think.

Have no more words for you because I don't wish to say the wrong ones!

The two posts above were to BendylikeBeckham by the way, who's desperately looking for an excuse to be offended while offending others.🙄

As garino says, also vice versa. The muslims got as far as Southern Spain. Genghis Khan did so much rape and pillaging 1 in 200 men have his DNA. None of us are responsible for our ancestors or anyone except ourselves.

I support the right of men and women in the uk to wear a full burkha (ideally on the men not the women) but also the right to criticise those those who do just as they can criticise me for what I wear. That is freedom.

Dear Cadent

No what I am implying is let’s all put things in perspective! Any attack no matter how bad is already bad and should be treated according to the full force of our reasonable hate crime legal system. That includes criminal attacks by criminals on women wearing (whatever clothing - fully covered up or just regular fashion items).

However this is bad but relatively minor compared to what happened in Reading which is evidently a religious and race related hate crime or mass terror attack to be more accurate.

Both are wrong but do understand the severity and difference. Both because of misunderstanding and hate based on I’ll conceived non understanding of diverse cultures.

I trust this adds to your understanding of my train of thought on this. I am here not silent but speaking out on ALL hate crimes no matter smaller or indescribable as in Reading!

I am not pro or anti any faith but just saying certain faiths place what some think are restrictions on certain sections of that particular faith. If the females of that faith have a free choice maybe they may or may not feel being distinguished or discriminated in the way they have to wear certain garments- that is all!

Must Muslim women I know are indistinguishable from the population at large (in the West) some drink but not all and none feel unMuslim because they are free to wear what they want when swimming and at the beach! They say they are themselves not wholly comfortable when traditional fundamental Muslim men and women. I am all for tolerance and respect for all whatever you wear or don’t wear.

So do not take what I say out of context and make it fit your narrative! It’s unnecessary and borderline rude!

@myohmywhatawonderfulday

I don't think it's ironic.

One is to do with the subjugation of women and preventing 'weak' men from lust.

The other is to do with a public health crisis and working together to minimize risk.

This is why intention, context and history need to be taken into account to avoid generalisations which may appear externally to be similar but are worlds apart.

Sorry Op - I think you are being unreasonable.

The niqab isn't worn to prevent 'weak' men from lusting after women. Islam holds men alone responsible for lowering their gaze which means that they shouldn't be staring at or harassing women regardless of whether the woman is in a thong or a niqab.

@Muslimah2020 Thank you for your input.
I'm sorry you experienced hurtful thoughtless comments on the thread and in RL.

No need to patronise me @Pepperwort. You originally said we had separate religious and civic life now, not historically.

Western folks have colonized countries and eradicated people, history, cultures and languages, it has forced people to give up on their heritage and abandon their land and families/people and customs to conform to a western lifestyle (were they would still be othered anyway) AGAINST their will FOR CENTURIES

Yes, you might want to read up on the Ottoman Empire, they invaded Europe as far as Vienna.

@ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia

However this is bad but relatively minor compared to what happened in Reading which is evidently a religious and race related hate crime or mass terror attack to be more accurate.

What happened to Muslimah was also a race related hate crime. HTH. Pathetic.

Cadent

What a lovely riposte - not!

Not interested in Mumsnet tennis but one is still posting and the others killed! Both hate crimes but are they both the same? Do consider therapy it would make your world more bearable.

Have a wonderful day.

PS would it be helpful to say that I have suffered a hate crime too!? Take stock and move on get a life before Covid gets you too.

What happened to Muslimah was also a race related hate crime. HTH. Pathetic.

Sure, it's not nice but not quite on the same level as being stabbed to death whilst peacefully sitting in a park.

Muslimah2020

"because in the Quran it says if you kill one innocent person it is as if you have killed the whole world of people."

Islam started in Saudi Arabia. Mecca and Medina are the centres of Islam for Sunni Muslims. In Saudi Arabia a Muslim can be executed for Apostacy - changing religion or renouncing Islam. Women have been publicly executed for alleged adultery. The Taliban, Daesh, Al Shabab, Boko Haram etcd. all follow Wahhabism, the most extreme for of Sunni Islam.

Why do people even feel the need to compare?! Why not just what happened to Muslimah was bad, full stop? She’s not responsible for what happened in Reading.

PS would it be helpful to say that I have suffered a hate crime too!? Take stock and move on get a life before Covid gets you too.

I bet you’re all also the type to bleat on about your experiences of racism on #BlackLivesMatter threads and change it to #AllLivesMatter.

Like I said, pathetic.

Ahem folks, apparently the attacker was a Christian convert (according to MSM). Guess the attack will be put down to mental health issues now...

As you were.

But of course as it is not what you were but what you are that counts as hey I was just a child before but are you going to take that immaterial fact into consideration.

When convenient he is not Muslim because his Muslim against non Muslim hate crime is not suitable for the Muslim appetite. Does not matter that he is an overseas African Muslim either as that would be racist against overseas and non indigenous people.

To all the cyber bullies and sad hatters here - you know who you are - do not make assumptions as to who I am ie my race, my beliefs etc etc. What I am is someone who is not afraid of cyber bullies like you defending indefensible guessing nonsense as who knows may be I am an AI bot testing out some comments for feedback!??

Lovely people on Mumsnet these days - so much passion, enthusiasm and empathy - not!

I think most mumsnetters are pretty fair to everyone whether we vote Labour or Tory on the whole and like to hear the views of others.

Women fighting in the Uk for the right to wear trousers so they could ride those early bikes for example and the battle to be allowed to cut their hair short and that kind of thing is a big bit of our past so clothing will always be an emotive issue but I remain happy that women and men wear what they want and that everyone is free to criticise them.

About 30 minutes ago I got out of my car to go to the post office. A Jamaican in the next car - said mamma your top is up - as far as I am concerned what bits of my body I show are nothing to do with anyone but clearly like a lot of men of all colours he wants to be helpful an thought I might not want a bit of my back showing and I smiled and thanked him and pretended he had done me a huge favour. I could have said - I am not your mamma and how my clothes look is none of your business and I am sick to death of men telling me how to look.

@ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia

But of course as it is not what you were but what you are that counts as hey I was just a child before but are you going to take that immaterial fact into consideration.

Right, and if he was a Christian who converted to Islam, you would be saying 'it is not who were but what you are now that counts' Regardless, it's still irrelevant to what Muslimah experienced.

Your agenda is very obvious and the rest of your post doesn't make sense which doesn't surprise me.

Thank you for all the kind comments, I really appreciate them.

Do niquabi work? Genuinely interested? Do the have jobs, interact with others outside family?

I used to teach sport with a coach from a muslim country. He came over here to coach as he was fed up of coaching lots of talented little girls who would be removed as soon as they hit puberty as covering is incompatible with the sport. But I have also seen it in this country too.

I don’t know how I feel tbh. I’m conflicted between it absolutely being anyone’s right to wear whatever they choose, and the links covering has to the oppression of women in some countries.

That and the fact I can’t communicate with anyone whose face is covered. So while it is entirely their choice, their choice effectively excludes people like me from their lives.

Do niquabi work? Genuinely interested? Do the have jobs, interact with others outside family?

I think the Gulf countries are trying to entice women to the workplace (i.e. get rid of us foreigners) so lots of niqabi women are working now. Generally, government offices are sex-segregated, so they wouldn’t have to interact with non-related males. But occasionally, my DH has had to speak to a niqabi woman at these government offices so seemingly no hard rules.

However, for high status jobs or public facing roles, I never see niqabi. I think it’s because you would have to work closely and collaborate with unrelated males. Also, with men in control of many industries, there’s little way to climb up the ladder if you won’t interact with men. So that leaves menial jobs and government jobs. That’s what I’ve noticed anyway.

I used to teach sport with a coach from a muslim country. He came over here to coach as he was fed up of coaching lots of talented little girls who would be removed as soon as they hit puberty as covering is incompatible with the sport

The promotion of (relatively) Islamic sportswear is helping to fix this problem. I know the burkini has a bad reputation, but it’s actually a wonderful way for conservative women to have a more active lifestyle. The alternative is just for them to sit on the beach 😓

The saddest thing I did see were three little girls clad in head to toe black with niqabs trying to play on the playground here. They .... were not terribly agile. This is very unusual, mind, but goes to show you how family can impose these choices on girls from a very, very young age.