Friend wants to be known as 'they'

[namechangeindiana]

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

Isabella same, I knew that my breasts were for men to ogle, or to be ridiculed by anyone who wanted to, as soon as they started to develop about the age of ten. Lifelong body dysphoria as a result. Still very glad that puberty blockers were not a thing back then.

If I had had that option as an 11 year old I'd have grabbed it.

I think the huge majority of female people would. Puberty is a horrific time for many reasons. Female people wanting to avoid puberty is nothing new.

Its a scary time for many males too I would think. However its no surprise to me that increases among girls are up 4000% now that 'blocking puberty' is more widely known.

Puberty is a horrific time for many reasons.
Of course it is. But it's a necessary evil. Who in their right mind would opt to remain prepubescent forever to avoid it?
An 11 year old is not equipped to make that life changing decision.

Olivia Purdie is medically delaying puberty because the 11-year-old doesn't want to develop the body of a woman.

"I am non-binary, which means I have no gender. I am just me," Olivia said

When you have the discussion that gender is not the same as sex this type of conversation starts to become very problematic.

You can have no gender (or reject gender) but we all still have a sex.

All children and adults have one. Choosing to refuse to go through puberty doesn't change this. You just have an adult with a body which hasn't been allowed to develop. That's physical harm caused on the premise that gender = sex.

Of course it is. But it's a necessary evil. Who in their right mind would opt to remain prepubescent forever to avoid it

A child currently going through it won't think that far ahead. I agree it shouldn't be going on. But kids, especially girls, given the opt out possibility, will be quite likely to take it, from my experience anyway. I would have taken someones hand off for it all to stop :(

A child currently going through it won't think that far ahead.
Well, I know that.
That's why we don't allow 10 year old children to make life changing decisions they don't fully understand.
Except this one, apparently.

That parents are allowing it is beyond me really. Mibnd, I guess they are shouted at from all angles that unless put on a medical pathway, their child will absolutely kill themselves. Which is fucking vile in itself yet it keeps being said, everywhere, even from 'professionals'

These kids are taught by activist types also that if their parents do not affirm 100% immediately, then they will kill themselves too. Being told that kind of thing as a child, will fuck your head and it might well make you believe that self harming in your case is the norm, so start doing it!

Yanbu to find it difficult to adjust and you friend isbu for giving you a hard time. I sometime use they instead of pronouns but it comes natural, I don't know why but I do.

Ditch the pronouns and just use their name in everything, makes more sense than 'they' and will be easier to do.

I don't blame the parents as such, l I blame the misinformation campaign from the likes of mermaids and stonewall. Cannot imagine being in the position where I had been told child will kill themselves if I don't do what mermaids says, and knowing/thinking that its not the right choice for my (usually lesbians, possibly Autistic too) child.

The fact that if when left alone to develop, 'gender varient kids' reconcile with their sex and the usual result is simply a gay adult..I cannot for the life of me see how so many do not understand this is conversion therapy in action. When stats seem to say that blockers are a self fulfilling prophecy, and once on them theres no mind changes.

So the situation you have is. Child 80-90% most likely to be gay. Medication can be used, in which case child is opposite sex, not gay. If not medication, gay most likely outcome. Medication pathway though, straight trans kid.

I DO blame the parents in the cases of 3 year old 'trans kids though. As such a thing is like a vegetarian cat in my opinion.

*Chidl 80-90% most likely to be gay, rather than trans.

Also I am not saying a 'straight trans' kid is a bad result. Just seen how that could be read.

However, watch and wait tends to result in child not transitioning. Where affirmation leads to them continuing in the 'trans identity'. Yes, 1 in 10 or so of children who present as 'trans' will be trans as adults. But medicating the other 9/10..on the off chance they are on of the 1/10..where the alternate likelyhood is they are 'cis' but gay. Knowing that 100% of the time, blockers are followed by cross sex hormones. How can anyone say that this is NOT conversion therapy?!

I think with the parents, it's a combination of being hideously manipulated by groups such as stonewall and mermaids, and attention-seeking/other nefarious reasons such as homophobia. Oh and munchausens by proxy maybe in some cases?

That's why we don't allow 10 year old children to make life changing decisions they don't fully understand.

Yeah. I agree with you of course.

Chidl 80-90% most likely to be gay, rather than trans.
I agree, but I'd put the odds even higher than that.

I worded that wrong. Its 80-90% who turn out to not be trans. And of those, most are simply gay. But 100% go onto cross sex hormones if on 'blockers'

But either way, the stats when looked at properly are very damning.

Its sort of good news that its no longer regarded 'a harmless puase button' though, which was much parroted. Including from the NHS for fucks sake, despite there not being evidence that long term usage is safe, and evidence showing its definitely not a 'pause' button given all kids on that pathway go onto cross sex hormones

Was quite obvious from years back that no way are these drugs harmless, especially in such longterm use!

Thank you linning

@IAmFleshIAmBone

I think with the parents, it's a combination of being hideously manipulated by groups such as stonewall and mermaids, and attention-seeking/other nefarious reasons such as homophobia. Oh and munchausens by proxy maybe in some cases?

I think they're just trying to do the right thing in difficult circumstances. Mermaids etc shouldn't be allowed to say 'this is the decision you should make' but that's what they appear to me doing, telling parents what to do. It's a catastrophe waiting to happen for those poor kids.

Dressinggown yes, I'm sure a lot of them are, but I don't think they all are trying to do the right thing.

Regarding the use of 'they' leading to puberty blockers, etc:

‘Socially transitioning might even have an iatrogenic effect on gender dysphoria as the body becomes a shameful secret’ in womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/17/the-natal-female-question/

'You mean the ones that say that lesbians are bigoted for asserting that they don't like dicks and people with dicks can not be lesbians?

The ones that sound like they support incredibly homophobic 'corrective sex' for lesbians?

Those comments?'

Of course not!

I mean the comments that someone's identity should not be respected because it involves other people besides them.

I mean the comments that imply that being transgender or binary is ALWAYS a delusion or affectation, and should not be 'pandered to'.

I certainly consider that ANY form of nonconsensual sex is rape, and should never be accepted, whatever the gender of the person doing so.

I don't know how you got from the idea that people should (in most cases) accept others' choice of pronouns - just as they should accept other people's choice of what name they wish to be called - as indicating anything of the sort that you are saying!

And I don't agree with puberty blockers, etc. for children too young to make a decision. The OP was talking about an ADULT friend.

Do they? I want to be known as The Queen but hey ho

I think they're just trying to do the right thing in difficult circumstances. Mermaids etc shouldn't be allowed to say 'this is the decision you should make' but that's what they appear to me doing, telling parents what to do. It's a catastrophe waiting to happen for those poor kids.

Not only 'this is the decision you should make' but..'this is the decision you should take as otherwise your child will certainly kill themselves' . Its disgusting really. And NHS signposts to this pressure group too, claiming they are a support group. Its beyond belief at times.

I find it quite interesting that so many have decided that because the OP slipped up on pronouns, this means they are just refusing to use the 'right' ones? They stated quite clearly they are trying but get it wrong. At which stage they are made to feel awful, for a mistake thats easily made.

But most of those arguing that 'gender pronouns' should be used..are mostly saying OP should be using them.

OP is. OP is sick of being attacked for getting it wrong. Attacking people for mistakes shouldn't be happening, and surely it should be expected that some will take a while to get used to it, especially after 20+ years!

ddl1 the problem is you assume that your position is acceptable and reasonable to trans people.

The problem is that what you've just said is regarded as exclusionary and transphobic and denying trans people their existence.

Which is an extreme position but the one that is driving and leading trans activism at present with no room for any of that nuance and no room for lesbians to say 'no' to the erosion of their boundaries, culture and identity.

And THAT is why there is push back from women because its been a land grab for power over women rather than a recognition of problems for those who have dysphoria.

The language creep that had led to trans women are women prevents women from defining themselves and their boundaries.

This is the crux of the entire argument. That being nice has been hijacked by people who are sexist and homophobic and don't have the interests of women nor transsexuals at heart.