My feed
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

AIBU?

Friend wants to be known as 'they'

952 replies

namechangeindiana · 17/06/2020 22:00

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

OP posts:
Report
SerenityNowwwww · 22/06/2020 11:57

@IAmFleshIAmBone

Pisses me right off how it's just expected. And we get admonished for saying well actually no, MY boundaries trump your hurt feelings

Yes - you can ask but not demand.

Your feelings don't trump everyone else's (especially since this is a fairly new phenomenon).
Report
Itisbetter · 22/06/2020 00:32

Pronouns are used as shorthand if the don’t convey the information you need you don’t use them. So you’d really just say “ TheyJohn/Joan is in the other room”

Report
IAmFleshIAmBone · 22/06/2020 00:29

Pisses me right off how it's just expected. And we get admonished for saying well actually no, MY boundaries trump your hurt feelings

Report
Scabberdikravern · 22/06/2020 00:27

Well yea. Women have always been the nice and kind sex and its gotten us great places so far hasn't it? AngryHmm

Report
IAmFleshIAmBone · 22/06/2020 00:23

Because it's 'nice' and 'kind' didn't you know 🙄

Report
Scabberdikravern · 22/06/2020 00:21

But why would you say 'they' are in the other room whennyou know its a singular person of a specific biological sex?

Report
Takemetovegas · 22/06/2020 00:10

"he.. I mean ... They is in the other room"
Yes that's an uncomfortable phrase to say but

"he.. I mean ... They are in the other room"

Is not.

Report
Itisbetter · 22/06/2020 00:09

OR you could just say,

"I went to the doctor today"

"Oh really, what did they the Doctor say?"

"My sons teacher said he's really well behaved and a pleasure to have in class"

"oh, that's nice of them his teacher"

Which is how most people talk.

Report
Scabberdikravern · 21/06/2020 23:56

@MyDarlingWhatIfYouFly

"I went to the doctor today"

"Oh really, what did they say?"

"My sons teacher said he's really well behaved and a pleasure to have in class"

"oh, that's nice of them"

We do it all the time when we don't know whether someone's male or female, they/them isn't just for plural and I don't think it sounds weird at all. I would probably constantly forget if a friend asked me to do this though.

Yes its used when the persons sex isn't known. I'm sure after 24 years of friendship OP is pretty sure the sex of her friend.

Why should she reword her language?
Report
TeaAndStrumpets · 21/06/2020 23:37

I am far too old for this shit, it reminds me of all the bullies at school who would invent "rules" to dominate their peers.

Personally I would say : "Sorry friend, I've had an in-depth discussion with myself, and between us we have decided to drop you. Bye!"

Report
LastTrainEast · 21/06/2020 23:16

Are they identifying as a football team? I know there are situations where you can use it for one person, but ..

"have you seen Fred?"

"he.. I mean ... They is in the other room"

Report
Thisismytimetoshine · 21/06/2020 23:00

@MyDarlingWhatIfYouFly

"I went to the doctor today"

"Oh really, what did they say?"

"My sons teacher said he's really well behaved and a pleasure to have in class"

"oh, that's nice of them"

We do it all the time when we don't know whether someone's male or female, they/them isn't just for plural and I don't think it sounds weird at all. I would probably constantly forget if a friend asked me to do this though.

Why do people keep "explaining" this, as if it's a great enlightenment? We know this, it's irrelevant.
Report
MyDarlingWhatIfYouFly · 21/06/2020 22:58

"I went to the doctor today"

"Oh really, what did they say?"


"My sons teacher said he's really well behaved and a pleasure to have in class"

"oh, that's nice of them"

We do it all the time when we don't know whether someone's male or female, they/them isn't just for plural and I don't think it sounds weird at all. I would probably constantly forget if a friend asked me to do this though.

Report
RedToothBrush · 21/06/2020 22:54

If your friend came to you and said, I’ve decided to change my name. I have escaped an abusive relationship and don’t want the person to find me

Its not the same.

I am yet to find a comparison that truly works tbh.

The whole point is a rejection of the former self and the reinvention of self to create a new identity and sense of self and a complete erasure of the past.

If you were trying to hide from someone, you (generally) aren't in denial of the past. You very much acknowledge its existance even if you don't want to speak about it. It is a matter of safety rather than a matter of focusing on this inner sense of self and thats really important. You change a name but you aren't intrinsically also trying to make the point that you are a different person. You've just changed your name.

There may be some comparison with people who have suffered trauma and are in deep denial (perhaps for good reason) and how this might manifest in someone escaping an abusive relation but the difference is in whether the focus is self preservation or a deeply inward looking and conscious break in how they present to the world in terms of dress, mannerisms etc on a broader level.

The better comparison is as if the former persona of the person declaring themselves as non-binary or trans has 'died'. Its not a great comparison, but I do think its the best there is. Family and close friends, almost need a grieving period and really don't understand that this is happening, especially when they are constantly told 'they are still the same person they were before' (when they are simulataineously being asked to treat the person differently and pretend they have a different history / sex / physical stature or presence to the one they have always known). I think its only after a while that family and close friends grasp the concept that the persona they knew has been suppressed / deliberately changed to present / become a new one.

Their motivation isn’t to make you feel you are walking on eggshells. It is about someone they love accepting them as they want to be accepted.

The problem with this, is the point about 'being accepted' is that the act that they be treated differently, is an act of asserting themselves and demanding a certain response which they approve of. Or to put it in a term which is better known: the need to be validated. And my point about simulataineously being told, 'they are still the same person' even though they are demanding to be treated differently. These two concepts can not sit side by side. If you accept someone for who they are, you don't then have to prove it again - except for in this situation, where there is this need to validate the change and demonstrate this.

If you do not live up to the 'correct' behaviour you are judged, but one party is constantly being forced to try and live up to this, without fully understanding what is expected of them. What one person thinks as being supportive, the other may not percieve it as that. And this is something that is offlimits to talk about honestly because of this blanket shit about causing offense. In someone who is deeply insecure, you might well find yourself on a hiding to nothing anyway.

There is 'accept it as I tell you as a transperson because I'm the weaker oppressed party or you are a bigot'. And this model is what is promoted by the community as to how to deal with the situation and promoted by lobby groups etc as how others must comply with.

Any wobble or problem from friends and family is something that can not been spoken because 'transphobia'. Any sense of it having a negative impact on them, is 'invalid' because of their 'cis privilige'.

Its all a complete pile of rot, and it doesn't serve either party. There's unrealistic expectations and this creates a victimhood complex which may not reflect reality. And the other party can be completely blindsided, and feel like whatever they do, its not good enough, because they are competing with these extreme insecurities.

I genuinely believe there are too many cases, where the dynamic means that in order to 'become their true self' there needs to be a rejection of people with a shared identity and past, to 'free' them from it and that does involve a period of relationship breakdown - whether forced or unintentional. This can manifest in a way which is entirely about 'testing' loved ones 'loyality' with behaviour which in other situations would not be acceptable. This is about pushing boundaries and testing limits. The 'If you really truly loved me you'd do x for me' situation.

There is a very distinct pattern of behaviour which friends and family seem to report with a regularity which is almost spooky.

The idea that family and friends 'aren't trying hard enough' is one that is manipulative and loaded with emotional blackmail.

The thing about 'walking on eggshells' is something that is an experience that can only be felt by others, and if they say thats how they feel its not a lie. Yet it is framed as an 'invalid' feeling. This is pure crap.

The whole thing has to be an exchange and a compromise based on a gradual understanding and movement to a shared new understanding of each other - or else it IS imposed and IS about power over another - because it is about a shared part of identity NOT individual identity. (We do not have singular individual identities. Identity has multiple facets; we have individual identities, shared relationship identities and wider social identities and these all combine to define us as individuals)

I've said on this thread several times, about this point of there being a fundamental lack of understanding of identity formation and its multiple layers and that is where the problem with this all this lies. Until this is confronted and taken seriously this will continue to destroy so many lives - both those who are coming out and those who are extremely close to them and trying to deal with the fall out for themselves and those they care about.

But yeah, we just get 'bigot' thrown about by people who have no fucking idea what they are talking about.

Report
Scabberdikravern · 21/06/2020 22:45

I'd say i wasnt comfortable changing my language to suit somebody elses preferences when I dont believe in gender.

Id probably lose the friendship but I just wouldnt bend to it.

Report
NotBadConsidering · 21/06/2020 22:45

but if you are willing to die in a ditch because it you don’t think it is right, then you go the same way as many in the past who didn’t believe in race equality, gender equality etc.

Do you remember all those black children who were given life-altering medications in order to shore up adults’ ideas of what constituted racial equality?

No, me neither.

Report
IAmFleshIAmBone · 21/06/2020 22:42

Empathy is totally appropriate when someone has an actual problem. Pronouns is not a problem.

Report
TehBewilderness · 21/06/2020 22:42

It is a question people have to ask themselves fairly regularly in this society.
Am I going to submit to this persons dominance display or am I going to refuse to submit.
That is why we are on page 38 of the discussion.

Report
Nousernamehistory · 21/06/2020 22:33

@Caplin

She's a biological woman.
The entire trans/non binary ideology is absolutely steeped in sexism. It's also one that anyone with an ounce of critical thought can see the danger of.

Biological reality matters and demanding the use of different pronouns is controlling.

Report
Thisismytimetoshine · 21/06/2020 22:32

[quote Caplin]@thisismytimetoshine I feel sorry that you can’t feel empathy and respect for an old friend in this situation, but if you are willing to die in a ditch because it you don’t think it is right, then you go the same way as many in the past who didn’t believe in race equality, gender equality etc.[/quote]
Bollocks. I'll be on the wrong side of history next.
No, just stop the nonsense, please.

Report
IAmFleshIAmBone · 21/06/2020 22:31

Caplin do you realise how manipulative the language you're using is?

Report
Caplin · 21/06/2020 22:27

Where did OP say her friend was narcissistic or controlling her? You are making pretty damning leaps about someone you have never met.

Maybe, they just don’t want to be referred to as female?

Report

Don’t want to miss threads like this?

Weekly

Sign up to our weekly round up and get all the best threads sent straight to your inbox!

Log in to update your newsletter preferences.

You've subscribed!

Caplin · 21/06/2020 22:24

@thisismytimetoshine I feel sorry that you can’t feel empathy and respect for an old friend in this situation, but if you are willing to die in a ditch because it you don’t think it is right, then you go the same way as many in the past who didn’t believe in race equality, gender equality etc.

Report
Nousernamehistory · 21/06/2020 22:23

Cutting out a total narcissist doesn't sound like too much of a loss anyways. I'd be enjoying having none of my speech policed based on fallacies and whims of self importance.

Report
Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/06/2020 22:21

Their motivation isn’t to make you feel you are walking on eggshells. It is about someone they love accepting them as they want to be accepted.

That's your assumption. I've seen these behaviour patterns before in my personal life, and how transactivists perceive the world, and I think otherwise. Would you say that to someone experiencing coercive control?

Report
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.