Friend wants to be known as 'they'

[namechangeindiana]

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

Karen? On this board for women? Oh no. I don’t think so.

I value support from both.

How does that tie in with your thinking that

I don’t think straight women should in any way, ever, speak on behalf of lesbians.

As a lesbian woman most of the rights and freedom I experience right now within my sexuality are thanks to trans women

I don’t think you DO value both at all. I think you would like heterosexual women to be silenced on any topic you deem non-heterosexual while simultaneously experiencing enormous gratitude for input from transwomen. It seems ill thought.

As a lesbian woman most of the rights and freedom I experience right now within my sexuality are thanks to trans women

You know there is no such thing as lesbian rights , right?

This seems a little contradictory or am I missing something?

@IAmFleshIAmBone

Who cares if SOME lesbians don't 'feel' oppressed by transwomen. The general idea that lesbians who don't want to sleep with transwomen are transphobic is oppressive. It's not about feelings, it's just a fact. Some sex workers might not feel oppressed it doesn't change the fact that sex work is oppression.

It’s not the “general idea” it’s the thought-process of a few transactivists who do NOT represent trans people at large and no, I don’t understand the logic in which, if I, as a lesbian am not forced nor pressured to sleep with a transwoman by anyone and don’t feel oppressed at all, somehow I am STILL oppressed by them on the basis that one or two trans folks somewhere might think poorly of me if they find out.

As a black gay woman I think I know a bit about oppression and while some lesbian might be oppressed by SOME transwomen, saying ALL lesbians are oppressed by transwomen is both ridiculous and quite offensive.

I would love to be as oppressed by white and straight people as I am currently oppressed by transwomen, life would be much easier for me, personally. But Alas, seems like it’s something only transwomen manage to do (oppressing me without me feeling oppressed) , sigh!

You don't have to assume anything, you just have to listen to their request and try to respect it

No you don't. You don't have to let other people power trip all over you and make you walk on eggshells. It's narcissism.

What rights have you been denied, Linning?

If only all women could be as great as transwomen, amirite?

@CecilyP

As a lesbian woman most of the rights and freedom I experience right now within my sexuality are thanks to trans women

You know there is no such thing as lesbian rights , right?

This seems a little contradictory or am I missing something?

Yes you are missing that lesbians don’t have rights that are separated from gay rights.

When I am talking about rights I am talking about GAY rights, not lesbian rights, which obviously are the rights I am given (like the rest of the LGBTQ+ community) as a lesbian.

Transwomen were active participants in helping me get those rights.

The liberation of lesbians along with the liberation of other queer people came through the abolition of discriminatory laws and the acquisition of rights (to get married, to have access to fertility treatments etc...), those changes were in part due to Transwomen,

Would you be able to provide more detail of how transwomen helped bring those specific rights about?

This thread is the perfect encapsulation of what has happened to the OP. Not feeling comfortable with a particular aspect of a particular ideology has resulted in accusations of being an oppressor, not understanding the history of oppression, akin to forced marriages, being subject to pages and pages of absolute waffle being written with the self-belief of people who think they’re forming coherent arguments, when in actual fact it’s just the same illogical bullshit this ideology always presents.

No wonder the OP doesn’t want to get too far into it. If you’re not on board, you’ll get called a Karen and “ hateful”, and have to read garbage spewed onto the page, trying to follow the meanderings of your accusers with complete puzzlement.

No wonder the OP fucked off ages ago, I hope they’ve fucked off their so-called friend too if they spew out similar garbage.

When I am talking about rights I am talking about GAY rights, not lesbian rights,

Okay, you might have mentioned that up thread!

Sorry, but you're wrong. Whether you personally feel oppressed is irrelevant (I'm glad you don't). Trans ideology is inherently homophobic and misogynistic. However since you've used the 'Karen' trope, I'm now wondering about your motives.

This thread is the perfect encapsulation of what has happened to the OP. Not feeling comfortable with a particular aspect of a particular ideology has resulted in accusations of being an oppressor, not understanding the history of oppression, akin to forced marriages, being subject to pages and pages of absolute waffle being written with the self-belief of people who think they’re forming coherent arguments, when in actual fact it’s just the same illogical bullshit this ideology always presents

This.

Yes you are missing that lesbians don’t have rights that are separated from gay rights.
Come again?? I think you're trolling now, Linning

@Thisismytimetoshine

What rights have you been denied, Linning?

As a lesbian? Surely you know marriage equality is fairly recent right and isn’t done everywhere? Do you know that in my home country (France) until fairly recently lesbians were NOT allowed to have access to IVF, do you know that depending on the country I visit I can get killed, jailed, rape?

Those are some but a few things lesbian face. Plenty of lesbians still don’t have right. Where I live it is still legal to send gay kids to conversion camp and Trump just overturned a law that allow medical staff to discriminate against LGBT folks.

So I don’t know? I guess I am not sure why I felt I had been denied some basic rights.

@Thisismytimetoshine

Yes you are missing that lesbians don’t have rights that are separated from gay rights. Come again?? I think you're trolling now, Linning

What rights do you feel I have as a lesbian that are specific to me being a lesbian?

much more trans individuals are killed than lesbian.

Do you have a citation?, You should be aware that many more black women are killed than MTF trans people of any race. That's in the US. In the UK less than 1 trans person is killed a year. I don't know how many lesbians are killed in either country, but would like this data if anyone has it.

I have never seen a transwoman speak on behalf of lesbians (not saying it hasn’t happen) but yes I would think the same.

You make me laugh. Perhaps you're not as clued up on this issue as you think, in your lovely San Fran filter bubble?

Is it me or did your last two posts completely contradict one another @Linning?

What rights do you feel I have as a lesbian that are specific to me being a lesbian

You actually mentioned one yourself; fertility treatment/IVF!

This thread has some of the best examples of bad faith arguing I've seen in a long time.

It’s not the “general idea” it’s the thought-process of a few transactivists who do NOT represent trans people at large and no, I don’t understand the logic in which, if I, as a lesbian am not forced nor pressured to sleep with a transwoman by anyone and don’t feel oppressed at all, somehow I am STILL oppressed by them on the basis that one or two trans folks somewhere might think poorly of me if they find out.

Do you understand how peer pressure functions as a type of social coercion?

I have never seen a transwoman speak on behalf of lesbians (not saying it hasn’t happen) but yes I would think the same

Meet Riley Dennis, whose Twitter bio says “Lesbian Icon”

mobile.twitter.com/RileyJayDennis/with_replies

m.youtube.com/RileyJayDennis?uid=VF8SAGEQnBA-yKM4iQNqfw

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3547287-Fantastic-report-from-Get-The-L-Out-please-share-widely

Plenty of debates about women worldwide, should we stop saying women have participated in their own (partial) liberation because some Karen’s are still out there trying to oppress people and doing questionable thing? Or does this faulty logic only apply to transwomen ?

I can't even parse this sexist nonsense.