Friend wants to be known as 'they'

[namechangeindiana]

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

I guess 'some Karens' translates to an entire ideology which previous poster seems to support and credits for affording her gay rights? I don't know, I'm highly confused.

For all the word written, for all the waffle, for all the apparent concern for lesbians, this much is true:

The current ideology of “non-binary” and pronouns such as “they” is leading to teenage lesbians being given puberty blockers and cross sex hormones. Homophobia in families is rife in gender clinics. As much as it’s deemed “supportive” of an individual person, supporting the use of incorrect pronouns also facilitates supporting the false belief that these children can escape the sex that they are, children being told such false belief by medical professionals, and children being given drugs to try and achieve the impossible and escape the sex that they are. A common theme detransitioners say is that they didn’t necessarily want to be male, but they didn’t want to be female. “They” is part of this. “They” suggests they can escape it. “They” suggests they can escape it with drugs and all will be fine and dandy. It would be fine if “they” just bought time, but too many are pushed down the affirmative medical pathway. It is an incontrovertible fact that teenage lesbians have been pushed down this route and given drugs that have medicalised them for life on the basis of homophobia.

As soon as a female child says they are now “they”, puberty blockers are on the table. This is leading to irreparable harm.

It’s not just a benign “support adults being happy” process at all, and young teenage lesbians are suffering the most. But who cares about them eh?

Transwomen have more power than women have ever had.

We don't have to think about it too long to work out why.

It is an incontrovertible fact that teenage lesbians have been pushed down this route and given drugs that have medicalised them for life on the basis of homophobia

Yes. A Newsnight investigation reported on this a few nights ago.

ON aspects of self ID people agree with (as the last page..I cannot really follow at all) I do agree with one aspect of it all. That people should be able to 'present' in a way that they chose. But is that really an aspect of self ID? Or is that just something that everyone should be able to do without abuse? I do not agree with people (usually men..or is that stereotyping?! I am not saying ALL men btw, but it is usually men) attacking male people for wearing 'feminine' clothes or makeup.

The whole its sterotyping to say most sex attacks are by men is just bizarre. Acknowledging this is not saying all men rape for fucks sake, not even close. But honestly, we have no way of knowing which men do, so we have stuff like female only areas as one layer of the swiss cheese model of keeping female people as safe as possible. I wish I could find the persn who explained the swiss cheese thing a while back, as it really clicked into place a lot of things for me..alas, it was over a year ago and my search function fails at the best of times. Even ignoring the safety thing, there is just..dignity and privacy to consider IMO. Women dont need to be at risk of being attacked for something to be wrong to force on them.

Anyway, the intersex 'debate' was a hell of an example of how some groups insist on using people with DSDs as a gotcha to argue in favour of transactivists policies though, my god. Its extremely well known that advocates of such communities have asked to be left out of the TRA stuff, yet people will insist on 'sing' them to make their points on gender stuff. Its..awful really. But, it won't end, so I don't really know why I posted this, I just fel it should be acknowledged that people who suffer from the very DSDs that TRA types seek to weaponise, have asked not to be used in such as manner, so it would be nice really, to listen to that.

Anyway, this started about self ID. I do agree people should be able to dress how they like withut abuse. Thats as much of 'self-ID' that I agree with. The rest is profoundly anti-woman and honestly, anyone who supports it, especially without thiking through the logical ed game of such policies..does not give s ahiny shit about female people. This is MRA wishes on fucking speed. TRA types and MRA have a ridiculous amunt of crosover, so much so its often impossible to believe they are not the same group.

Thatds not saying all transwomen are MRAs, before that starts. Infact, from what I have seen, most transsexual people are against self ID as they see it won't benefit them in any way and will infact make things a lot worse for transsexual people. Odd, how its always brought up as a way to make things easier for transsexual people..or its implied over and over that 'trans' means people with dysphoria. When those of us who have been on this for a while know trans means literally anyone who wants to claim the label..and that transactivists..seem to spend an awful lot of their time abusing actual transsexual people and writing them off as 'truscum' :( Which i itself kind of proves TRAs are not advocating for the rights of transsexua people, at all. Its male supremacy really, that those types fight for, rather than anything else, and they have concined people..even some feminists, that what they are fighting for benefits women. Its a hell of a magic trick really.

Again, I feel the need to say that when I sa transactivists, I am not meaning all trans people. As of course that will be implied. I mean specifically transactivists who fight for 'self ID' and abuse transssexuals who speak up saying 'hey, this isnt good for us either!'

Apologies in advance for typos and stuff, keyboard is fucked. Hopefully even with errors it makes sense. If not, then its a huge post about fuck all

Ugh. Riley Denis genuinely makes my skin crawl. He was a large part of the push to get 'lesbians who say no to penis are bigots' going properly. Its now taken off, and Riley is pretty redundant, but still..he makes me feel fucking ill.

Again, its not transsexual people who say shit like the above. Its the new 'transgender' male people. Many of whom change nothing at all, and actively attack people who have dysphoria as of course saying trans people are people with dysphoria is massively transphobic and if you say that you are indeed a TERF and deserve to be killed

Honestly, if its not about dysphoria, what the fuck is it about? Why would people who just 'like different stereotypes' want to claim to be trans in any way? What 'rights' do such people require. And why..would someone who doesn't even suffer sex dysphoria, have ANY need to use the areas of the opposite sex? Why would a bloke who likes wearing dresses, have need in using a womans changing room instead of the mens one? Really? Answers on a postcard.

This thread has some of the best examples of bad faith arguing I've seen in a long time.

Hell this.

To be honest, some of these comments remind me of the attitudes that were common with regard to homosexuality in the past (and still are among religious right-wingers of several faiths): 'A person can't possinlu be genuinely gay; they are trying to push forward an 'agenda' to 'oppress' others; all gays are paedophiles, and supporting gay rights is exactly the same thing as supporting paedophilia; same-sex marriage is a lie; it is everyone's duty not to pander to the 'immoral agenda' of gays', etc. etc

I hope that not too many people still support such views, but 'Clause 28' wasn't abolished all that long ago, and homosexuality was only decriminalized in the 1960s in the UK.

I am totally cisgender myself, and to be honest, find it a little difficult to understand what it is to be transgender or nonbinary. My sympathies for transgender rights probably come more from having had heaIth problems that went undiagnosed for some time and led to some people suspecting me of 'faking' or imagining things, than from any sort of ideology, or even complete understanding, about gender issues. I may turn out to be wrong here, but I do think that some transgender activists have complicated the issue by insisting that everyone is on a gender 'spectrum' and making it into a gender ideology rather than sticking to their own situation and needs. Some people have a kidney that doesn't function properly, and may need a kidney transplant in order to function. Some people have blood that doesn't function properly, and may need blood transfusions or even a bone marrow transplant in order to function. Some people have legs that don't work typically, and may need a stick, wheelchair and/or other adaptations such as lifts and ramps in order to function well. And some people are born with such a strong divide between their bodily gender and their brain gender that they need surgery and/or social adaptations in order to function well.

I am sure that there are some people who pretend to be transgender in order to gain opportunities to abuse women, or, less drastically, as an affectation or to get attention; just as there are some paedophiles who have abused children of their own sex and some people who have pretended to have cancer or other serious illnesses in order to gain attention or money. But that does not mean that no one can genuinely be transgender.

In general, unless someone is known to be a liar, I think one should accept their wishes on things that have to do with their own identity; they usually know themselves better than anyone else knows them. Similarly, they should be tolerant of lapses of memory about pronouns, etc, so long as it is not being done out of contempt or belligerence. If you don't want to be a close friend of someone who is transgender or binary, that is up to you (just as it's up to you if you choose not to have close friends of the opposite gender to yourself) but I don't think one should condemn or bully them for being different to most people - in this respect or any other.

'The current ideology of “non-binary” and pronouns such as “they” is leading to teenage lesbians being given puberty blockers and cross sex hormones.'

This is the sort of thing I mean. Using the pronoun 'they' does not lead to anyone being given puberty blockers! This sort of 'thin edge of the wedge' argument is on the same order as saying that same-sex marriage will lead to paedophilia, or that allowing people to build a mosque in one's town will lead to ISIS taking control and blowing everyone up, etc. etc.

think one should accept their wishes on things that have to do with their own identity; they usually know themselves better than anyone else
I don't want to be forced to collude with anyone's version of reality when it differs from mine. This is my choice. My right.
I don't have to be grateful for their "tolerance" for my lapse of memory regarding their pronouns, when they have zero tolerance for my wish to be left the hell out of it.

I am totally cisgender myself, and to be honest, find it a little difficult to understand what it is to be transgender or nonbinary

I am non-binary according to current labels. As are most of the women on this site! So I would say we know exactly what it 'is' to be nonbinary. Which appears to be (going by stonewalls definitions, which should be up to date surely?) does not follow stereotypes associated with ones sex. Oh, And doesn't 'feel like' a woman/man. Well I have never, ever 'felt like a woman'. When thinking about the topic, best I can come up with is 'I feel like me'..I do not feel like my sex and doubt thats common actually.

I do not find it difficult to imagine being transgender. Assuming transgender means suffers dysphoria. I suffered from anorexia as a child and expect the feeling is not dissimilar. I have sympathy for such people of course. My issue is this 'trans does not mean suffers dysphoria, you bigot' type thinking that seems prevalant. As honestly, without dysphoria, I do not see how one would be trans in the first place, as without the crippling dysphoria, all thats left is stereotypes, and following the 'wrong' stereotypes..is not something that one needs 'help' with IMO? Such thinking seems the majority among the transsexual community too, they dont get how anyone can claim to be trans without the associated dysphoria. Which then leads to 'those without dysphoria are more trans than you are 'truscum' which is obviously shit.

To be honest, some of these comments remind me of the attitudes that were common with regard to homosexuality in the past

You mean the ones that say that lesbians are bigoted for asserting that they don't like dicks and people with dicks can not be lesbians?

The ones that sound like they support incredibly homophobic 'corrective sex' for lesbians?

Those comments?

Those lesbians denied their identity as homosexual in favour of 'heterosexual homogender'?

Right?

This does my head in.

It's the complete and utter blindness to homophobic whilst simultaneously accusing others of being like homophobes. Often to lesbians who know what homophobia is well enough.

It's completely tone deaf.

I actually was first told to check the nonbinary label when..in a convo on here actually..someone asked me how I would cope if I woke up tomorrow in the body of a man. I said I would cope quite well, it would obviously be odd to start with but..I would get used to it and hell, likely even enjoy the added power!

Using the pronoun 'they' does not lead to anyone being given puberty blockers!

www.bbc.com/news/health-51806962

In one example, a GIDS clinician describes a young person who had come out as a lesbian and faced homophobic bullying, "within the family and quite openly in school".
^"Suddenly the young person changed their mind and they started identifying as trans."
In some of these cases, clinicians thought that it wouldn't be appropriate for the patient to be referred for puberty blockers, with one child apparently saying: "My mum wants the hormone more than I do."
But staff could be overruled by GIDS director Polly Carmichael, the transcripts suggest.^

mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-02/not-a-boy-not-a-girl-four-corners-olivia-delaying-puberty/11998826?nw=0&pfmredir=sm

Olivia Purdie is medically delaying puberty because the 11-year-old doesn't want to develop the body of a woman.

"I am non-binary, which means I have no gender. I am just me," Olivia said

I am non-binary, which means I have no gender. I am just me," Olivia said
Why is anyone blithely accepting this from an 11 year old? I'm just me...
Special.

Non binary is just nonsense. You'd be hard pushed to find a single person that totally conforms to a so-called 'gender'. Everyone is non binary if you look at it that way. Gender dysphoria is a mental illness based around something that isn't a problem but has for some reason been medicalised. Sex dysphoria is a real thing and it's unfair for genuine transsexuals to be lumped in under the trans umbrella.

pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/145/2/e20191606?download=true

In this Ethics Rounds, we analyze a case that raised issues about prolonged pubertal suppression for a patient with a nonbinary gender

Don’t fucking dare come along and say it isn’t happening. It’s happening in gender clinics all around the world.

Anyone who thinks language has no effect or doesn't change politics needs a copy of 1984 broadcast on loud speaker outside their house until they get it.

Also non binary encourages non hormonal breast binding... No drugs necessary.

Anyone who thinks language has no effect or doesn't change politics needs a copy of 1984 broadcast on loud speaker outside their house until they get it.

I know. I read it for the first time last year and I was underlining things like mad thinking 'he could be talking about TRAs there'.

Of all the things he envisaged when be was writing that, I bet it wasn't this...

Sex dysphoria is a real thing and it's unfair for genuine transsexuals to be lumped in under the trans umbrella.

Agreed 100%.

Nonbinary, despite applying to me, is nothing special IMO. Its basically called being an individual. Thats it.

Of course, dysphoria is a very real illness. And I do massively seperate those suffering dysphoria and the narcisists..but to do so means I am a terf. Those with dysphoria should absolutely get the help they are entitled to and I cannot see anyone having an issue with that..infact I would actively campaign with such people if their healthcare or something was in jeopardy.

What makes things worse, it the general public assumes trans means transsexual. And therefor those of us saying 'hold up' look awful..because the public think of a post op transsexual..while trans actually means..well anyone who wants the label.

You would be hard pushed to find a feminist who wants trans people to suffer. Nor one who thinks they don't exist. But, there is a world of difference between 'lets do what we can to make this persons life easier as they live with crippling dysphoria' and fuck female rights, allow all men in.

And no question about it, it IS about females. Removing the word woman, making it meaningless, removing our sex based rights. Anyone who says its not about women..check out the bodyshops search feature. Thats one example but there are literally thousands. Search man/men. Then search woman/women.

similar to cervical cancer stuff now being 'people with a cervix' while prostate cancer is allowed to use the word man without wails of discrimination

As I say, despite how 'transphobic' MN/feminists apparently are, oddly enough actual transsexual people who post here or interact with us..are on the same 'side' in this as they see the massive red flags and also see that what activists are campaigning for will not help them at all, infact it will (and is already) make things worse for transsexuals.

I'd tell 'them' to bugger off. I'm sick of this shit

Olivia Purdie is medically delaying puberty because the 11-year-old doesn't want to develop the body of a woman.

If I had had that option as an 11 year old I'd have grabbed it. I found it incredibly upsetting. I remember as an 11 year old not wanting to leave the house because I was starting to grow breasts and people commented on it, and even by that age I had been groped a couple of times. By the time I was 16 I hated my breasts so much I was self harming (too big, and the subject of many many unwanted comments and touching). Growing up was upsetting and it was traumatic.

But guess what, I survived. As did the vast vast majority of other females. And then I went on to marry and have two children. I still hate my breasts even as a middle aged women. They are a torture and if I woke tomorrow and they were gone I wouldn't miss them. But if I had had medical intervention as a teenager that left me infertile where would I be now? I doubt I'd be pleased about it, even if it was what I wanted at the time.

So linning let me get this straight. You think people should be able to “self id “ as either sex but males not have access to Female spaces ? What on earth does self id mean in your mind then, putting on women’s clothing ? Because there is nothing stopping anybody dressing as they wish.