Friend wants to be known as 'they'

[namechangeindiana]

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

@Clymene

Linning "As a lesbian woman most of the rights and freedom I experience right now within my sexuality are thanks to trans women, specifically trans women of color,"

Are you talking about the oft repeated trope that Marsha Johnson started Stonewall? Johnson wasn't there and didn't identify as trans in any event.

Storme DeLarverie, a black lesbian, started Stonewall. It's surprising (and a bit sad) that as a fellow black lesbian you didn't know that.

Did I talk about Marsha Johnson nor the exact person who started Stonewall? No. I said Transwomen were are the forefront of the battle alongside LGBQ+ folks fighting for my rights, while straight women weren’t. The same women who are complaining about men all being oppressors, when technically, if you really want to reduce transwomen to straight men wanting and waiting to oppress then according to that own very erasure and bias, well some straight men (“opressors”) where at the FOREFRONT of the battle against homophobia (a form of oppression) while straight women weren’t.

So again, branding all transwomen or all men (depending on how you want to look at it) as oppressors is unnecessary and ridiculous when so many have spent their life fight oppression (while benefiting very little from it) and show a real lack of interest in the role transwomen have played in fighting oppression in the last couple of decades.

You have said ‘most humans’ have two legs. Perfectly true. Had you said ‘all humans have two legs’ you would have been staying that people who don’t have two legs aren’t human. As it was, you were inclusive, which is how I think people should be.

Humans, as a species, are bipedal. Some unfortunate people have less than two legs and a few have 3. This does not change the fact that the species is bipedal.

I don’t think straight women should in any way, ever, speak on behalf of lesbians.

As a lesbian woman most of the rights and freedom I experience right now within my sexuality are thanks to trans women

That seems a bit selective. Straight women should be respectfully quiet, and transwomen should be outspoken?

@Thisismytimetoshine

Self-ID is a hard one because I agree with you for the most part but I do feel people should be able to self-refer with any pronoun they wish and start presenting as a woman/man So, instant access to women's changing rooms, prisons, toilets, and other single sex spaces, you mean? Or how exactly do you define "presenting" as a woman/man?

Had you not stop the quote where you did, I bet you would have tis answer.

Presenting: using the pronouns she/he as fit and wearing whatever the fuck they want without being insulted/discriminated for it.

I didn’t say people who self-ID should be entitled to women spaces, so no it’s not what I meant nor what I wrote.

As a lesbian woman most of the rights and freedom I experience right now within my sexuality are thanks to trans women
What "rights" have trans women bestowed on lesbians?

Had you not stop the quote where you did, I bet you would have tis answer.

Presenting: using the pronouns she/he as fit and wearing whatever the fuck they want without being insulted/discriminated for it.

I didn’t say people who self-ID should be entitled to women spaces, so no it’s not what I meant nor what I wrote.

You wrote they "shouldn't be able to change paperwork". Paperwork, or the lack of it is completely irrelevant to Self ID?

Whats the difference between speaking on behalf of something and speaking in defence Of something or as an ally of something?

@Itisbetter

I don’t think straight women should in any way, ever, speak on behalf of lesbians.

As a lesbian woman most of the rights and freedom I experience right now within my sexuality are thanks to trans women

That seems a bit selective. Straight women should be respectfully quiet, and transwomen should be outspoken?

I didn’t say straight women should be quiet, by all mean talk on behalf of straight women, I simply don’t think they should be able to talk for nor on behalf of lesbians, the same way I would not speak on behalf of straight women nor other categories I do not belong in (white people/disable people etc...).

By talking on behalf of lesbians when you are not gay, you are weaponizing us to make a point, that impacts lesbians who may not agree with your stance and do not wish to be used in this debate in that sort.

There is a constant argument here that intersex people should not be weaponized by people who aren’t intersex yet you would find it reasonable to do it to lesbians? Why?

I have never seen a transwoman speak on behalf of lesbians (not saying it hasn’t happen) but yes I would think the same.

@Thisismytimetoshine

As a lesbian woman most of the rights and freedom I experience right now within my sexuality are thanks to trans women What "rights" have trans women bestowed on lesbians?

Well obviously transwomen aren’t the one in power now are they? By that same logic did women really got themselves more rights or did men kindly grant it to them? Surely they were the one making most of the decisions, it’s still women who fought for them and those rights we probably wouldn’t have without them, same thing for trans individuals during LGBTQ+ riots and march.

I didn’t say straight women should be quiet, by all mean talk on behalf of straight women, I simply don’t think they should be able to talk for nor on behalf of lesbians
Yes I’m sorry I don’t seem to have made myself understood. Why do you value the support of transwomen but not of heterosexual women?

I have no idea what that means, Linning, sorry, it's quite garbled...

@Thisismytimetoshine

Had you not stop the quote where you did, I bet you would have tis answer.

Presenting: using the pronouns she/he as fit and wearing whatever the fuck they want without being insulted/discriminated for it.

I didn’t say people who self-ID should be entitled to women spaces, so no it’s not what I meant nor what I wrote.

You wrote they "shouldn't be able to change paperwork". Paperwork, or the lack of it is completely irrelevant to Self ID?

The only thing I said is I felt different about different aspects of self-ID, and agreed with some but not with others, like I said I support pronoun use and freedom of wearing whatever one wants without being discriminated.

I already replied in details on another post about my stance re women spaces and prison issues so no, your assumptions weren’t the correct ones.

As a lesbian woman most of the rights and freedom I experience right now within my sexuality are thanks to trans women

Crikey. I mean I know they are brave and stunning but I didn’t realise they were responsible for the liberation of lesbians. I would have thought making same sex attraction an impossibility, because either sex doesn’t exist or it exists but it’s transphobic to mention it, a bit of a negative but then I’m a straight women so utterly clueless when it comes to standing up for women.

Your arguments are very garbled and difficult to follow, Linning.

Yep, the world is going mad.

Well obviously transwomen aren’t the one in power now are they?

In some influential industries they very much are.

@RufustheRowlingReindeer

Whats the difference between speaking on behalf of something and speaking in defence Of something or as an ally of something?

For me, speaking on behalf of someone is Speaking FOR them, without being them nor knowing their experiences and stance (which is impossible when it comes to a group anyway).

Saying “ Lesbians are being oppressed by transwomen” is speaking on behalf of lesbians in a way that isn’t okay, A-because not all lesbians feel oppressed by transwomen B- unless you are part of the lesbian community I do not think it would a statement be for a straight woman to make. It falsely represent lesbians and is said by someone who isn’t even gay herself so yes, that’s problematic.

Speaking in defense would be a more detached approach “ Hey, I worry that might be oppressive for lesbians!” (It shows you are worried about lesbians and your heart is in the right place and are opening an important discussion, while acknowledging you aren’t gay yourself and without weaponizing lesbians.)

@Nihiloxica

Well obviously transwomen aren’t the one in power now are they?

In some influential industries they very much are.

Were they in 1969? And how many of them are/were in high position of power (ideally in politics) ?

@Itisbetter

I didn’t say straight women should be quiet, by all mean talk on behalf of straight women, I simply don’t think they should be able to talk for nor on behalf of lesbians Yes I’m sorry I don’t seem to have made myself understood. Why do you value the support of transwomen but not of heterosexual women?

I value support from both.

I don’t appreciate the weaponization of lesbians from either.

Who cares if SOME lesbians don't 'feel' oppressed by transwomen. The general idea that lesbians who don't want to sleep with transwomen are transphobic is oppressive. It's not about feelings, it's just a fact. Some sex workers might not feel oppressed it doesn't change the fact that sex work is oppression.

Well obviously transwomen aren’t the one in power now are they?

They are where I work and where my child goes to school. I have no right to have female only toilets and showers at work and even better, I could be subject to disciplinary action for even asking for ladies only toilets. Because that would apparently be transphobic. If I am observed to be very obviously avoiding going to the toilet at the same time as a transwoman colleague, or if I go in and see them there and decide to wait until later, guess what, it could be a disciplinary matter if they complain.

My daughter has no right to female only changing rooms at school. If the male PE teachers declare tomorrow that they are now women (no medical intervention or diagnosis necessary) they'll be able to supervise the teenage girls getting changed. It's all there in the school policies. And the other schools in the area are the same.

Transwomen have more power than women have ever had. It took women centuries of campaigning to get fundamental rights and it has taken Stonewall about five years to reverse loads of them. Maybe not in law, but in practice.

@Binterested

As a lesbian woman most of the rights and freedom I experience right now within my sexuality are thanks to trans women

Crikey. I mean I know they are brave and stunning but I didn’t realise they were responsible for the liberation of lesbians. I would have thought making same sex attraction an impossibility, because either sex doesn’t exist or it exists but it’s transphobic to mention it, a bit of a negative but then I’m a straight women so utterly clueless when it comes to standing up for women.

You know there is no such thing as lesbian rights , right?

The liberation of lesbians along with the liberation of other queer people came through the abolition of discriminatory laws and the acquisition of rights (to get married, to have access to fertility treatments etc...), those changes were in part due to Transwomen, so yes I do owe them as much as I owe other lesbians and gay folks for what little right I have now.

The current debate about lesbianism and transwomen has nothing to do with the participation of transwomen in life changing events for women like me.

Plenty of debates about women worldwide, should we stop saying women have participated in their own (partial) liberation because some Karen’s are still out there trying to oppress people and doing questionable thing? Or does this faulty logic only apply to transwomen ?

Transwomen are absolutely in power. Why do you think we can’t use the words women or girls on period products any more? Why are we mensturators now and cervix havers? Why was the Women’s March told not to centre female biology? Because a transwoman said so. Why is JKR being betrayed and misrepresented? Because the Trans lobby have got politics, education, the BBC and the charity sector in a stranglehold.

Women never ever got this far.

You know there is no such thing as lesbian rights , right?
Can you explain (clearly) what rights you are denied, as a lesbian? Specifically; what rights do you not have that you think you should?

Linning what's a Karen? 🤔